Flow Interview- Ari Iso Autio

Flow Interview- Ari Iso Autio

Articles To Inspire Flow Performance Skills Tips and Training

Before we start, I would like to Introduce you to Ari;

Ari is a  yoga teacher and  co-own Lumi Power Yoga  in London; His background is in business, in corporate. He spent 20 years as a management consultant, working around the globe. Then he discovered yoga, initially as a way to deal with burnout, and then he got hooked and got deeper and deeper into it, and eventually it took over.

He is from Finland and grew up on a farm.

Elena: When I was reading about yourself, you were saying that you’re an unlikely yogi.

Ari: Unlikely yogi yes! I think that’s right. If you had told me 10 years ago that I would be in this… like having this kind of conversation with you, I would have said, “You must be crazy,” it just wasn’t in my awareness. I was very focused on climbing the corporate ladder, and very logical, very rational, very driven and successful in that, and I always thought yoga was something a little bit weird. But then, as with many things, I got into yoga through burnout and just hitting barriers in my life; professionally I was hitting walls, I was going through a break- up, I was living in a different country, it all came together, and then someone said, “You should try yoga,” you know, one of those things where your friends say, “You really need something,” and I went, and before I knew it I was practically living at the studio, and it took over.

Elena: Amazing. When do you think was your first flow moment that you can remember?

Ari: I was reflecting on that question, and I can certainly remember… When I started yoga, a few months in, I did what was then called a Personal Revolution Bootcamp, it was an intense week of yoga, and I remember… I was new to yoga, and about halfway through I just remember this one particular practice where I really felt alive and present, and after the practice I remember just lying in a pool of sweat and just thinking, “I’m happy. Everything is just working, everything is good,” and I guess… I don’t know if you call that flow, but that was the first sort of sense of me being complete, complete and full in the moment, like nothing was missing, and that really stands out. Since then there’s been lots of different experiences, but that’s what opened the door I think.

Elena: Listening to this, it sounds like one of the dimensions of Flow, the perception of time disapears. During the practice, you were like, “Wow, what just happened?!” like you mention, “I was covered in sweat and the activity was totally finished, but I didn’t realise what was going on during the activity,” ?

Ari: Yeah, that’s right, and since then there’s been many different instances, but I think for me it’s actually becoming more aware of what is happening with me. What yoga gives me this awareness  and therefore I can probably recognise when I am in a flow and when I’m not in a flow; I can put feeling, emotions, words, descriptions, distinctions around it, and I think that’s one of the big tools of yoga.

Elena: Being fully aware and fully present?

Ari: Yes, and being able to… Flow can be quite conceptual, and it is a concept in a way, but it’s also a collection of different things that happened, and in order to see that those are happening, I can feel like you need a different level of awareness to notice whether it’s happening or not, and I think that’s what yoga has given me; whether it’s me being with my kids, whether it’s me practicing yoga, whether it’s teaching yoga, whether it’s leading trainings.

Elena: I like what you’re saying, and I totally feel connected and aligned with that. Because also one of the dimensions of the flow state is to be fully present, fully aware of what’s going on, and yoga, as you say, helps you with that. What would you say helps you to be in that state of full connection and awareness?

Ari: Well, I think actually the way I think of flow is that flow is an outcome and flow happens when a lot of things come into place, and so what helps me get into flow is conscious practice of those things that need to be in place. If I think of yoga practice, it’s very simple: the more I come on my mat in a purposeful way and the more I practice the physical practice – the more I practice my breath, the more I practice my gaze – the more likely it is that I will then enter into a flow. It’s almost like those things have to be in place, because otherwise I will always be caught up in the technicality and in the doing of it, but worrying about “Am I doing this right?”

Elena: Yeah. That’s another dimension, when the self-talk or self-consciousness disappears when you’re fully present there’s no self-talk anymore, there’s no “Am I doing this right? Am I doing this wrong?” or that type of thought.

Ari: It’s kind of… I was thinking, flow is not… It might feel easy in the moment when I’m in it, but to get into it there’s a lot of work that goes into it, to be able to be in that state, whatever the activity is. If I think of myself as a parent of two small girls, initially that wasn’t a flow, that certainly wasn’t a flow; I needed to learn and practice and figure out how things work, and then…

Elena: Yes, so it’s a process and it’s also a choice.

Ari: Exactly.

Elena: Obviously you teach many students here in the studio. What advice would you give to them about being aware of the flow state and also how to get into that state? What do you think would be the top three pieces of advice that could help them?

Ari: Well, the first one we already covered, which is just practice; there is no substitute for it. The second one I think… Flow, by definition, it’s from somewhere to somewhere, so having an intention for your practice. It might be for that practice in the moment, or it might be for that day or it might be for your life, like something that you’re moving towards and consciously creating in your being, in your movement, in your breathing; it’s all there. And then there’s maybe a final: there is practice and there is intention, and then there’s something about just surrender, like being able to just let go of anything else and surrendering to what is, not aiming to make it perfect but…

Elena: When you say surrender, you mean acceptance?

Ari: Yes, it is an acceptance, it’s a… It’s an acceptance that all of these things are happening right now.

Elena: Good advice. You were explaining your trajectory and how you started in the corporate worldand how you ended up here, as a co-founder of the studio. What would you tell to your younger self who was starting in the corporate world?

Ari: I would like to say a couple of things. One is… Something about trusting my intuition more initially, to making things my own quicker, rather than feeling like I need to follow others or dothings in a certain way. Related to that, what I would say is life is short. Don’t waste a second; get clear on what you want and move quicker towards it.

Elena: We were talking before about intention and setting goals, what you want to achieve and where you want to go.

Ari has a very calm and peaceful voice, you transmit a lot of calmness and tranquillity. Do you have any techniques that help to ground you, if you’re stressed or you’re doing multiple things at the same time? What do you do to calm down or relax?

Ari: Well, for me it’s the obvious things: it’s getting on my mat, it’s practicing, it’s breathing and it’smoving. The other thing I do is journaling and just reflecting, setting intentions in the morning, reflecting in the evening. It can be two minutes, it can be five minutes and it doesn’t take long, but just… That helps me get a grip of the day if you like, it’s a moment. The final thing I do a lot of is I walk. I know it might sound obvious, but I walk everywhere and also… I sort of walk with purpose. I often listen to something inspirational, something that I can learn from, something that puts me in a good state, and I use every bit of time that I have. So when I walk tonight, when I walk from this studio home, I will have about 10 minutes and I’ll put something inspirational, I will listen to someone talking to me, giving me something that fills me up and it kind of grounds me in… It’s kind of inspirational, but it’s… I don’t know, it just lifts me up.

Elena: What inspires you?

Ari: I’ll tell you the main thing that inspires me, and it’s being able to make a difference in people’s lives. Whether it’s just someone coming to a yoga class and just having a 60 minutes time-out from their busy life, just time out, just space, or whether it’s they’re going through something and that 60 minutes gives them a new angle on things or whatever it is, but it’s just being able to give back what I’ve gotten from yoga and share that gift of presence, clarity, intention, and that inspires me. Yeah. That’s what makes me get up in the morning.

Elena: That’s your purpose?

Ari: Yes, it is.

Elena: I like it. Maybe you use the same techniques, but after long days or long practices or maybe sometimes stressful moments, do you do something to recover? Does yoga give you that recovery, or do you use other methods?

Ari: I’m kind of a reflective type, so that helps me recover, my own space; I’ll quite happily go into a cave for an hour and that helps me recover. The other thing that helps me is being taught or trained or inspired by somebody else, like letting myself be a student and maybe going out todo a workshop or do a training, and getting filled up and recovered in that. Yeah, sometimes you just need to refill.

Elena: I don’t know whether you’d like to share anything else?

Ari: My teacher is Baron Baptiste and in his book he talks about flow, and there’s a sentence which I wrote down because I thought this was so spot on… He says, “Yoga is the point where many aspects of a person merge together in one flow towards some new point, the point where many aspects come together in flow towards some new point, and I thought, “That’s it.” It’s bringing the physical, mental, spiritual, all of us… When I’m in practice or in flow or wherever, bringing it all together and then moving from there towards a new point. That’s what we talk to in classes, flow, we call it Vinyāsa and it’s one of the pillars of the practice.

There’s a lot of value in just flowing, like physically moving and flowing, without trying to get it right, like just… and there’s an energy that comes through in that and there’s a release that can happen that way. The word “flow” has so many different meanings, but to me that’s how it manifests itself on the mat.

I started to write down the characteristics of flow: there’s presence and there’s direction, there’s purpose, there’s clarity, body and mind integration. And sometimes it’s also… At least for me, flow is… Sometimes it’s imperfect, in the sense that I will go in and out of the flow. So it’s not necessarily this unique, blissful state that’s always magical.

Elena: I agree, you cannot be 24/7 in that state, you can go in and out. The more tools you have or the more practice, you will get more into that. And in the end it’s a choice, so if you also have that intention at the beginning of the day, you will see it more often.

Ari: Yeah. And it’s really being aware… One thing is practicing on the mat… Where I’m doing a lot of work right now is training other teachers and running workshops and being in front of people and leading things, and being able to notice when I’m in a flow with that I love that, like having the audience and being able to deliver my message and sensing what’s going on and being in that flow, and it’s great to be able to bring tools physically of the practice into that.

“Am I breathing? Are my two feet on the ground? How am I standing? Where is my mindgoing to now? What am I focusing on?” bringing all of those things and being able to see that.

It’s like everything becomes three-dimensional and quite vivid when I’m in that state. And then noticing also when I go out of that and I go into the “need to look good” or trying to say things in the right way and then stepping back. I just find it fascinating.

Elena: When was the last time you were in the flow state?

Ari: When I teach, I think that’s where I always look for a flow state. It was when I taught, two days ago.

Elena: That’s good. Thank you so much!

Ari: Thank you! Good questions.


Thank you Ari for your time and wisdom, see you on the mat.

Flow Interview – Homero Diaz – Redbull Enduro Rider

Flow Interview – Homero Diaz – Redbull Enduro Rider

Enduro Flow Performance Skills Pilot Stories Tips and Training

Roaring around on a motorbike since the age of four, Mexican Enduro rider Homero Díaz has built a whole life around the world of off-road, two-wheel racing ever since. He’d already won his first race by the time he was eight and is not only a three-time National Mexican Enduro Champion, but also a three-time Latin-American title holder.

We had the chance to interview him and know more about he gets into flow:

Cameron: I guess we start off with what might you know about flow, and what’s your experience is to date, and then maybe go into questions you might have around the state, and then go into a little bit about what we can do in the future, and the rest of it. Sound good?

Homero: Yep.

Cameron: What’s your current understanding of flow? Can you explain a flow experience that you’ve had?

Homero: Well, I’ve been thinking a lot about this since the first message that I got from you, and… I think it relates to that moment… Well, I guess the connection we have, you and I, is because of the sport I practice, right? So, I think the main thing about flow is that that moment when you stop… when you stop seeing stuff and you start feeling stuff. Like, in my sport it’s during a special test or a track or whatever, and you feel more… Like, the way you enter into a turn, or the way the bumps feel, or the jumps feel, or the ~rides~ or whatever; it’s more about feeling than seeing I guess, and it also translates into being on a slow motion… I guess everything goes in slow motion, but it doesn’t mean you’re going slow; it just means that you’re… it comes into your brain really, really clear, that it makes you comprehend it really well. That way… I guess that’s the reason why you feel everything’s coming in slow motion, because you comprehend it really, really well and so clear.

Cameron: Yeah. And can you explain a moment or a previous experience that you might have had, either at a tournament, or just you… your biggest or best ever flow experience?

Homero: Probably when… It comes up a bit more as a surprise when you’re starting to become a better rider, and all of a sudden you start figuring it out. Now with more experience it’s easier to get into that flow, but when I was starting to become a better rider, close to 2003 and 2004 when everything started, when I was racing ~the Worlds~… It would have been like on a very, very long special test during an enduro race, where it was [03:00] probably a 12- or 15-minute special test, which in our sport is a really long special test; a 15-minute special test is a really long one.

When you get out of the special test, and you say “Oh man – it went through reall fast!” or “It went through really easy!” that’s when you understand that something happened. At that time I didn’t know what had happened, but now with more experience I know that I had gone into a really good flow or a really good sense of concentration, and now I can get it really easy. But it takes time, it’s not easy, it’s not an easy process to get into that state of mind. So, probably during those stages—usually I remember that the Scandinavian races were the ones that had the longest special tests all the time.

Like, a really short one was eight minutes and the really long one was a 15-minute special test. That took us about, I don’t know, about 12-15 minutes to ride on the motorcycle. So, being on the same level of flow from the beginning to the end of the special test is really hard, and usually I used to get it from the mid-point on, but when you start getting it from the start to the end, that’s when you know that things are happening the right way, you know.

Cameron: Yeah, for sure. And what helps you get into that space? Is there anything specific that you focus on beforehand, during, after, or you kind of manage in your mind the motions, or externally?

Homero: Well, I guess being relaxed, and trying to focus on that exact moment, although what I like to do is just think on that precise special test. I don’t try to think about the whole picture, I want to focus on that moment only, and then from that special test, when it’s over…

Well, in our sport we walk the special tests before, and we’re not allowed to use any vehicle. Like a bicycle, we cannot use a bicycle to walk the special test – it has to be by foot. So, when I get to the special test now on the motorcycle, I like to focus on what I walked, what I saw, and then try to use little pieces of that special test, and then connect… Like, if it was a 10-minute special test I would probably remember the first three minutes, and then from then on I would remember the second three minutes, and so on.

Because sometimes it’s just too much information to learn right away, so when you know how to divide a whole in fractions, it’s really easy to become one with the track and one with the motorcycle, and that way at the end you start flowing more and more. You know, as I told you before, it’s hard at the beginning, at the beginning of a sports career, but then with more experience you learn how to connect each and every dot with more accuracy and more speed.

Cameron: So you break the course down into small little steps, remembering each one. Do you visualise what’s your perfect route between it, and then the next bit and then the next bit, and then add them up as you go along? Is that what you’re saying?

Homero: Yeah, exactly. And the way I do it is I try to… I try to relate little things which can make me remember the whole course. I don’t know, let’s say if I was walking the test with one of my buddies and he started all of a sudden talking about the party he had a few years before or one week before, I say “Okay, this is this straightaway where we talked about the bar or the party.” you know, and then we… I relate that session to memorise the next thing. And then we say “Oh, look at that tree – it looks like a bird!” or whatever, and then I say “Okay, okay – this is a turn right before the tree.” and then we see whatever, or we hear a sound “This is the downhill right before we heard the sound.”

You start… It’s a bit… It’s a bit hard to explain, but once you start connecting all those little things that happen, all of a sudden you’re going to remember a 12-minute special test; exactly where you need to break, where you need to ~stand~, where you need to accelerate, what kind of obstacles you need to avoid or what obstacle you can use to increase the speed on a little section, you know. I’ve done many, many races all over the world, and I know how to relate to make it easy to remember.

Cameron: What do you do just before the race starts? Are you focusing on those small little chunks and visualising your way around the course, or what are you doing? Because obviously the heart’s beating, you’re getting aroused. What allows you to plug in?

Homero: Well… Usually we talk about before a race as like 30 minutes before or so, but I like to talk about before a race the night before a race, which is one of the most important moments, because the way you sleep is going to be the way you race most of the time. So, when I go to bed before a race I try to remember all the little things that I saw during my ~walk out~, you know, and that’s the way I fall asleep. I close my eyes and I start remembering the whole track or the whole course, and if I fall asleep before I finish the track that’s good, that’s no problem.

But you have to start getting into your racing mode before the race, and that way the next day you wake up and you’re starting to get more ready and more ready and more ready. It’s like going into a room, getting ready. When you start getting closer you start feeling it; every step you feel it more and more, and you need to be more concentrated. I mean, most of the riders that I know, the professional riders, we get into a sense that… I don’t know, it’s either you get more serious, or you get louder, or you smile more… It all depends on how you approach your race.

For example, I just get… I mean, I’m a… Outside the races I like to be very smiley and a very funny guy and everything, but when the race goes, when I’m starting to get close to the race it’s racing mode, and you get really serious, and that’s when… I guess that’s sometimes when the people know you, they know you when you’re racing, and they say “Oh, this guy is really cocky, and this guy is really serious, or this guy is…” Because that’s ~our office~, you know, that’s what we do for work. I’m going to work to the races, and I’m just being serious, because I take it really, really serious. And that’s a state of mind also, because that’s… We’re used to getting serious when it’s time to work, you know.

Cameron: That kind of leading up to… so maybe from 30 minutes until before you start, do you have any kind of preparation? Do you try and listen to music, do you try and zone out, do you try and have a laugh, do you just try and relax, or you focus on doing your equipment? Would you have a…

Homero: No, I… Most of the time I have rubber bands hanging on the canopies or the tents on our team, and I start warming up, doing a lot of moving. I usually start from the bottom up – ankles then calves then knees and so on until the neck – and I’m… I don’t know, I have this idea that I need to start sweating before the race starts, and that’s how I want it, that’s how I want it to be. It helps me get in the mood a little bit easier. I’m already having my muscles a little bit ready, my heart rate is a little bit up, and then everything starts to click in, and then… You know, when I get to… We put our bikes in [~3, 13:27] or the impound, we impound our bikes 30 minutes before, so we have those 30 minutes of free time to warm up or do whatever we want.

So, from the moment we impound I start doing all my warm-up, and I prep my goggles and everything… I prep all that just to have something to do during my free time. And then once the race starts it’s just… I mean, again, go with the flow, you know, whatever happens happens. But I try to concentrate on every special test, you know, I take it easy… Like, when I go to special test one I remember special test one – that’s it; I don’t have to start remembering about special test two. Then when I get to special test two I remember only special test two. I like to divide everything by fractions. And then if we’re going to be doing at the end of the day 16 special tests, you know, it’s just that; just remember pieces, little pieces of the whole thing.

Cameron: And what do you do in the last 30 seconds before the lights go on, or you’re ready to go? What are you focusing on, what are you preparing?

Homero: Well, I have a… Like, every single time right before starting a special test I put the bike in neutral, and then I… Let me show you what I do. [laughs] I’m like this, and I’m like… I do my hands like this and I rub them, I rub my hands to create a little bit of energy that way, and that way I can… Like, you know, if you start thinking more about energy and becoming one with your own self and all that, and especially when… I was taught by my dad that when you do this you cannot be sad, you know. Like, if you go like this you always smile, and you create energy, so that’s one of the things I do. I clap my hands, I clap my hands really hard, then I rub them, and then I start. And you’ll see me do that in every single special test from 2004 to today.

Cameron: Yeah, nice! Perfect – that’s a really good cue!

Homero: Yeah. [laughs]

Cameron: Yeah.

Homero: That’s my… That’s my secret! [laughs]

Cameron: Yeah – awesome! Have you ever tried to feel that energy? So, when you rub your hands, and then you keep rubbing them, and then just between… Can you feel like almost as if you’ve got two different magnets pushing against each other?

Homero: Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

Cameron: Can you feel that?

Homero: Yeah.

Cameron: So then do that, and then try and widen it and get it kind of bigger, and you might need to push in to feel that resistance, so almost you can feel that energy. Can you feel that?

Homero: Yeah, yeah.

Cameron: Yeah? And then try and get it big so it’s like a football.


Thanks Homer for this interview



Flow Interview – Ash Grimshaw MMA Fighter

Flow Interview – Ash Grimshaw MMA Fighter

Flow MMA Performance Skills Sports Tips and Training

Ashleigh has been in the MMA spotlight for over 10 years.

Ranked No. 4 in the UK featherweight rankings and current UCMMA FW Champion,  Ashleigh holds significant victories over UFC veterans.

Known for his aggressive grappling, submissions and ground and pound, Ashleigh uses his Judo background to unleash a mix of powerful slams and takedowns, mixed with sharp stand-up skills.

We had the chance to interview him and this is what we talked about how he gets into Flow:


Elena: One of the main questions and what I’m very interested in is if you could tell me, if you can

remember one of your first flow experiences?

Ash: I think I had… I never had a competitive flow experience, in fighting, but I’ve had one in

training, where everything you did, it was… I didn’t have to tell my body to do it. Does that

make sense?

Elena: Yeah, totally, in the Flow state everything works smooth and perfectly.

Ash: I just kind of did it instinctively. But then I don’t know if that’s flow state or I don’t know if that’s

just repetition of the training kicking in, but I remember that everything I wanted to do, I

needed to go and every position I wanted, my body just knew where to go.

Elena: It was like flowing?

Ash: Yeah. It was kind of like… I don’t want to say I had nothing to do with it because obviously it’s

me doing it, but I felt like it had nothing to do with me.

Elena: And what was that feeling like, what was the experience like and what happened after that?

Ash: Well, it was very short, it wasn’t something that was prolonged. It was possibly… I don’t want

to exaggerate, but I’ll say possibly 25 seconds long, just an exchange in combinations and

movement and then it kind of broke… Once the action stopped I kind of wasn’t in there

anymore, and it wasn’t something I could just get back.

Elena: Okay. This is also one of the charchteristics of flow, is an optimal state of consciousness, when you feel and perform your best. It’s the moment of total absorption. Time speeds up or slows down… How long ago was this?

Ash: The first burst ever? God, maybe eight years ago. Yeah.

Elena: And the ones that come to mind have been while you’re fighting, while training?

Ash: While sparring – training, yeah.

Elena: Have there been any other instances?

Ash: No, there hasn’t… I’m lying to you: there has been one time where I’ve done it in an actual

fight and actually won because of it. It was just… But yeah, I don’t know if it was instinct or

repetition, I don’t know, but I remember the entire sequence, the clinch, I threw the knee, he

came in, I jumped, got him and submitted him straight away. I was like, “How did I do that?” I

do remember that as well, that was quite good.

Elena: Okay. Outside your sport have you ever experience something like this?

Ash: No, not outside. There’s no everyday… It’s not every day that I have a flow state.

Elena: What do you think helped you at that time to get into that state?

Ash: I don’t know if I was caught up in a moment and just competing off of instinct and not thinking,

but at the same time obviously thinking, but I’m not… The thoughts aren’t coming from

memory, thinking, “I’m going to do this, I’ll do this.”

Elena: Yeah. When you’re in the flow state that self-criticism goes away and you’re just totally

connected with your performance, with your practice, with yourself and everything just

happens, as you were saying. You also mentioned repetition, and that’s part of it, trying to…

getting out of that challenge of self every time and then the flow state will happen. Let’s talk

about the first time it has happened. When was the most recent one? Can you remember?

Ash: I think I’d get one maybe… Now that we’re discussing it and going through, maybe I get one

every day, but it’s very… It’s like a 10 to 12 second burst of where my body doesn’t think, it

just does it. I probably had one yesterday in training, yeah.

Elena: And when you think about this and say you have one every day for 20 seconds for example…

If you go back to that moment, what is going on, what’s happening at that time? Is it at the

beginning of your training or during?

Ash: It’s just during the sparring, yeah.

Elena: During the sparring. For how long would you be into it?

Ash: I could’ve been half an hour into training.

Elena: So after half an hour?

Ash: Yeah, half an hour of going live and hard sparring, and then just kind of, “Oh, I’ve slipped in[to


Elena: That’s interesting. What would you say to someone who was listening to you and is also a

fighter or starting out? What advice would you give them to make this happen?

Ash: Again, I think I’d put it down to the old school, just continuous me doing it and repetition,

repetition, I think… Because I can’t tell you how it happens, I couldn’t say, “Do this and it’ll

happen.” I don’t know how to make it happen, I don’t know.

Elena: So it’s more like a feeling.

Ash: Yeah, and it’s also having to switch on.

Elena: Yeah, that’s how it sometimes happens. But it’s related, as you said, obviously with that

repetition. What else do you think is related with that?

Ash: Maybe it’s the mind state going into it, I think. Like I said, I could be making stuff up.

Elena: There’s no right or wrong answer, it’s just what works for you. But yeah, it’s also that mind

state. So what’s that mindset for you? How are you feeling at that moment?

Ash: I’m not sure, maybe it’s just… I just think, “Alright, it’s time to do what I do. This is my job, this

is what I do. Let’s go live.”

Elena: Sounds like you trust yourself?

Ash: Yeah, just believe in the training and just go for it. Yeah.

Elena: Yeah, that’s cool. Me asking these questions is also an opportunity for you to think about it

and say, “Okay, it’s happening, but how I make this happen is…” And as you say, it’s that

trust, it’s that repetition. What does your body feel like? If you go back and try to remember

that moment, how is your body feeling? Is it light, heavy, more tense, more relaxed?

Ash: It’s definitely not tense… I don’t know. I guess you could say you flow, which sounds really

stupid when you say it, because it’s a flow state, I get it, but you kind of just… Everything just

seems in sync, everything just seems in time. It feels like you do 100 things in two seconds.

Elena: Yeah. This is another quality of flow, sometimes time slows down or something, it passes

really, really quick while this is happening to you. I think we’ve talked about this before, but do

you have any preparation before a competition, mental preparation or something that… You

told me that you don’t work as much on the mental side, but any routines or…

Ash: Yeah, I have. A good friend of mine, a client of mine in fact… He was a big time trader on

stocks and shares, and for every fight he’d remind me “Who you are,” that’s the main thing.

He would say, “Ash, write down who you are and think about you competing against you. And

just remember, this is who you are. Remember, you can accomplish this, you’re good at this,

you’re good at this, you’re good at this… Really remind yourself.” We used to do that every

day leading up to…

Elena: Connection with yourself and really believe in yourself.

Ash: Yeah, just kind of remind me that, “This, the guy you’re competing against has to compete

against all of this,” and if you really think about it you can write quite a list.

Elena: Yeah, for sure. Anything else, any routines for example?

Ash: No, I’m not superstitious in the slightest. [laughs] I’ve had a lot of fights: it’s just get up, go to


Elena: Yeah. But you don’t have any set routines that have been developed over time, like getting ready or

listening to some specific type of music?

Ash: Oh, no. No, no. I have no problem sleeping, no problem. Music? No, I’m alright. Sometimes I

guess… There a motivational speaker called Eric Thomas, I sometimes listen to some of his

speeches, he’s very, very powerful, he’s quite good. But I listen to him every day anyway, so

it’s just…

Elena: What do you like about him?

Ash: The positivity, the positivity. And it’s the… It doesn’t matter, as long as you’re going. To lose is

to never try, that’s the thing. The loser is the person that never gets up to actually go and

actually try and put something into action, that’s the loser. So yeah, I listen to him.

Elena: What about the end of the competition or the end of training? I can see that you pay attention

to your nutrition and what you eat. What do you do to recover and get ready for the next day

or the next fight?

Ash: I eat quite clean nutrition wise. If I can, I try and have like an hour nap in the afternoon as well,

and I go to bed relatively early. I mean, my first client of the day is usually at 7 AM anyway, so

I have to go to bed relatively early and get up at 6 AM to make it. But other than that, that’s it. I

look after my body; I am healthy, I sleep well, I eat well.

Elena: You don’t do anything special after a fight?

Ash: No, just… Life goes on.

Elena: Keep it simple. [laughs]

Ash: Yeah, I don’t need to do anything… My last five fights I’ve gone abroad the next day, after a

fight I’ve just gone on holiday for a week.

Elena: Okay, that’s a good way to recover. [laughs]

Ash: Yeah, because the wife… ~It helps calm her mind~.

Elena: Yeah, yeah. And where do you go on holiday?

Ash: Wherever she says! [laughs] Yeah.


Thanks Ash for this interview!


Flow Interview – Matt Whitfield, Naval Aviation Pilot

Flow Interview – Matt Whitfield, Naval Aviation Pilot

Aviation Flow Performance Skills Pilot Stories

We had the chance to interview Matt Whitfield about his experiences with flow while flying the skies.

Cameron:         Hello and welcome to another flow session! We’re very lucky we have the presence of Matthew Whitfield who’s a lieutenant commander. He spent 20 years as a naval aviator pilot and instructor, and spent the last eight years flying as a display pilot for vintage jets. We just wanted today to talk to you a little bit about your own experiences, how you might have experienced flow and how you felt within that flow experience, and also maybe to highlight to others who are looking to find flow more frequently in their lives, just one or two nuggets that you’ve used in your past that you might be able to communicate. Take us through a short memory that you have where you were intensely in flow, just briefly describe the situation and then how you felt during it.

Matthew:          Okay, certainly. I’ve given this some thought and I had a choice for two, one of which was flying a Harrier alongside an aircraft carrier at night, decelerating into the hover and coming across the deck and land; that was one. But what I think I’m going to talk about is the moments that are required in preparation for a display in the world’s only flying single-seat twin-engine supersonic fighter, so we’ll do that one I think, that was the Sea Vixen. I last flew that in 2013, and I picked up some incredibly good habits from the other guys in the Navy over the years. For me the flow… we would jokingly call it your happy place, the place at which you know you’re cooking on gas, you are delivering your A game, that you’re going to be safe, accurate… I suppose we used to say of display that a display can either look good, feel good, look bad but feel good, or look good and feel bad, there’s always a combination; when you’re in flow, you get both.

So, for me the flow would start, or understanding I was in flow was part of this environment we have across aviation now, certainly in the military, of getting into the bubble. A bubble is a metaphorical shape that you are in, and everything else you need to perform to the best of your ability is within that bubble for you, and I’ll give you an example of what sort of stuff that is. That is you’ve had a quality weather brief, a met brief, you’ve chatted with your engineer about how the aircraft’s been the few days before the performance, what it was when you last flew it, that you’ve had a quality brief from the display organiser, and that I’ve had time between that brief and my show time, the time I’m expected to display, I’ve had plenty of time to sit and be at peace and mentally rehearse what I’m about to do.

That involves for me certainly closing my eyes, and I got into the habit of actually doing it before I even got to the airfield. It might be on the bus there or in the hotel room, but certainly in the moments before we fly, before I climb up the ladder, get into my happy place as I’m strapping into the aircraft. The last four or five minutes I’d be in my flying kit, we’ve done the brief, I’ve out briefed – the last brief we have for everything – signed for the aircraft, spoken to PK, the engineer, given him my helmet, and then I just stand there with my eyes closed and visualise where I’m looking in the cockpit, where I’m going to look out of the window, what I should expect to see between each manoeuvre, the speed I should be at and the altitude I would anticipate needing to be at to be able to complete each manoeuvre.

Cameron:         Okay. What sort of manoeuvres are you talking about?

Matthew:          Nothing extreme. It’s an old aircraft, we’re limited to 4 g [four g-forces] so there’s no what we’d term looping manoeuvres. Most people I think can imagine what a loop is: you fly along, pull all the way around upside down, and once you’re upside down a loop you’d continue that circle and come around. There was no need to do that with these aircraft; people don’t come and marvel at who’s flying it, they want to see the aircraft and listen to the sound, so there was no need to do that. So it was just being able to link each manoeuvre seamlessly together, there was no need to try and punchy and snap and “Oh, look at me – wow, brilliant!” it just should be a very graceful linking of stuff.

I always found it was very important to have that four or five minutes before I climbed up the ladder and strapped in, the PKs strap me in, listen to the radio, put my oxygen mask on, take one of the pins out on the ejection seat, and then just sit there listening to the radio, taking a few deep breaths.

I now know that was mindfulness type stuff, but I would do it just to calm down; adrenalin was rushing, there could be tens of thousands of people there waiting, and there’s never a guarantee you’re going to get airborne, these are old aircraft that may or may not have a snag when you start up. But I can put my… [laughs] I could see myself do it, the steps up the ladder, the sound of going up the ladder, the feeling of the leather flying gloves, the knowing I’m going to be hot because it’s the summertime – I’m wearing a green flying suit, I’ve got a g-suit on, I’ve got a life jacket on, I’ve got a helmet that’s green so you’re warm – and strapping into the aircraft, sitting into a seat… And the smell of the cockpit… You know, these old aircrafts have an absolutely distinct smell, and that, again, helps me go, “Ah, I know what I’m about to do now.”

Cameron:         Yeah, so that kind of primed you almost in a ritual to get to that happy place.

Matthew:          Yeah. It was the same on board the carrier, on Ark Royal, that process of carrying your helmet across the deck, saying hello to the plane captain, having a polite chat with those going up the ladder, check your ejection seat and then walk around the aircraft, and you were then on the flow, the flow state was increasing because it was a ritual. There was things you would check before you get into the aircraft, there were things and a process you go through about starting one of these aircraft. You don’t just go, “Oh, a bit of this, a bit of that,” it’s an absolute process and there’s good reasons for that because mistakes get made. So that’s before we even got airborne, that’s how it is. [laughs] I’m still thinking about going up that ladder, a little red ladder on the side of the aircraft!

Cameron:         [laughs] Those experiences can suddenly bring up a lot of arousal and memories and emotions. When you’re actually in that experience, you’re flying and you’re being as graceful as you possibly can, trying to get your timing absolutely perfect, what are the… If you were to describe to someone how that felt when you’re in it, and I know you’ve had a brief look at the nine dimensions of flow – and maybe if you can relate to a couple of those, fantastic; if not, no problem – but just give us a description of how it felt to you being in it.

Matthew:          I think without a doubt, and other people who’ve done this, it’s the control element, that the environment you’re put into to display a historic jet at an air show is very controlled. There are gates you have to make – your paperwork, your medical, the weather, etc. – but actually me in the flow, it’s the control, knowing that on previous occasions if I’ve thought I could’ve done better about something, when I’ve reflected back on that or debriefed with the guys, I’ve spent time mentally rehearsing those moments so it’s embedded in my brain so things happen automatically. Yes, I think about it, but I know that as I roll out what I should see as I put wings level, I’ve got two seconds with wings level to make sure I’ve got full power ~to patch up~ 390 to 420 knots at 4 g, and I know what line in the ground I’m not allowed to cross, or the rules say you’ve got to be up away from the crowd, the rules are very strict.

So it’s the control for me, knowing that I’m in control of the aircraft; if I cock up, it’s my fault. There’s no excuse blaming the wind because I’ve been briefed on it, I’ve mentally thought about that before I got in, and I… I suppose a sense of pride of what I represented, the Royal Navy, the fixed wing service, the aircraft carrier, you don’t want to let people down and I think there’s a lot of self-pressure on that front. But the control elements of knowing that my right hand isn’t squeezing all the buttons out of the control column, out of the steer case… I’m very relaxed, my right arm is relaxed on my knee, my feet are on the pedals, I’m strapped into the seat but I’m still completely free to look around and out of the window for those visual cues that I know I should be seeing, and my left hand is quite relaxed on the twin throttles, on the two engines, and that’s where my hands stay until moments I need to flick a switch. But I know that’s coming, I know when I need to flick it because I’ve practiced.

Cameron:         When you say control, what is really noticeable for you in that experience? Is there a pressure to be in control, or do you actually feel you almost have like a limitless control?

Matthew:          It’s certainly not a pressure to be in control, it’s a function of flying these aircraft; I don’t have 320 passengers on board, I have nobody else on board, it’s me in this aircraft in an ejection seat if it goes wrong. It is knowing I have the capability to do it, the aircraft has the capability to do it, and when I’m in the groove, on my A game, it happens, it will be a seamless… You might go too far into wind, reversing… “Okay, ease off the rate of roll here because it will look seamless.”

Cameron:         And where’s your attention during that time? When you’re in that zone and you’re saying you’re looking for visual cues, where else is your attention?

Matthew:          Several areas. Because of course you’re using your ears, there is an element of using the ~seat of the pants~ stuff, understanding when you’re still pulling or you’re pulling harder. So visually your eyes are flicking between the cues you need out of the cockpit – landmarks, the runway or the display line you’re flying to: it might be the air traffic control tower, the lines on the ground that are marked out for those of us flying – but there are key moments when you absolutely need to be looking at my air speed and the altitude I’m at, or it should actually be the height of course you’re above the airfield.

Because I need to have control of my energy state, the aircraft’s energy state. If I’m low-level, I need to be faster to have enough energy, that when I pull up I convert the kinetic energy into potential energy, I’m converting my speed into height, so I know that when I pull up using 4 g I’m going to have 4,500-5,000 feet, which is ample height to continue the next manoeuvre. I won’t be the type of chap who pulls up at 350 knots and thinks 4g, he’s going to end up at 3,000-3,500 and he hasn’t got the altitude or the height now to finish the manoeuvre. So your question about where is your attention… Your eye… I’m very strict on where I look at particular moments. Before I pull up I want to know my speed. When I’ve pulled up and I’m upside down before I roll out, I need my height, and there is an element of speed because of course I then need to roll; it’s no good rolling when I haven’t got enough speed.

Cameron:         That situation you explained to me just then made me think there’s a hell of a lot of decision-making that happens instantly in that second or however long you’ve got; and they’re critical decisions, the wrong decisions can lead to disaster, etc. It seems from what you’re saying that a lot of that doesn’t happen necessarily consciously, and I almost had this picture in my mind as you were explaining the energy resource of that plane almost as if it was your own body.

Matthew:      Yeah.

Cameron:         That’s how it… The picture came to me that you’re almost examining the plane’s energy levels as if it’s your own and almost feeling like there’s a heartbeat in there.

Matthew:          Not necessarily a heartbeat, but there’s not one of us who flies for the military I don’t think – the Army  Apache pilots to the Royal Air Force Hercules pilots – those of us who are on your own in an aircraft, millions of pounds worth of training put into you and millions of pounds worth of aircraft… If you strap that aircraft to me, that’s how I envisage it: I go up that ladder, settle into the ejection seat, strap in the five seats and then it is part… It’s part of me, we’re now a team, me and the aircraft, we’ll do this – definitely you strap that aircraft to your back. And the colleagues of mine over the years, especially when you’re on board or back at Yeovilton in Somerset… You do, you are part of that weapon system… Through the incredibly difficult, tough training you go through, to be successful you have to understand why it’s important you’re like that.

Cameron:         Thanks for sharing that story, that’s a really great insight. What’s your challenge to get back into that state, where everything happens seamlessly and decisions are made real time? What’s you find your biggest challenge is to get back in there?

Matthew:          Distraction, and it has happened. For those eight minutes when Sea Vixen clear take-off… That’s it now. That flow is there, we’re there, we’ve got eight minutes now before I land and taxi back in, and my flow state stops when the ejection seat is safe, the canopy is opened, I’m unstrapping and carefully getting out. Distraction is what breaks the flow state. That can be air traffic, it can be another radio call you weren’t necessarily anticipating, but for me it has been air traffic, it routinely would… Through no fault… It’s quite right, they should make this radio call, but it wasn’t what I was anticipating, and it does just stop the flow and you have to dismiss it if it’s not relevant to you, and of course typically it will be relevant to you so then you have to adapt.

Cameron:         Great stuff. I know you’ve had a brief look at the 12 steps to flow, which is our framework for how people can focus on finding flow more frequently. I know we haven’t gone through them in depth at all, but are there any that just instantly spring out at you that you think, “Yeah, this is definitely something I’ve focused on over the years to help me get into this happy place.”?

Matthew:          It’s number four for me, mastery. You only need to mess up once in this business and you’ll never be invited back to do it again, there’s no ifs or buts and it is pretty black and white. So mastery, being able to understand that people want to see the aircraft, they don’t really care who’s in the aircraft. There are aeroplanes that people want to know it’s “Wow, look at the Red Bull Air Racers, aren’t they incredibly talented at what they do?” but in vintage jets it’s the aircraft they want to see. So it’s being able to relax off the pressure of me and understand I can now master what I need to do to deliver. That’s why I took it perhaps too seriously but very seriously this rehearsal, this understanding I’ve been able to get in and deliver. And I take time to understand, “If something went wrong at this point what are my options? If I hit a bird at this point, what am I going to do? If someone drives across the runway and drops something on it and blocks the runway, where am I going to go, where will I divert to? If I have a fuel flow problem, have I got the capacity… Well, I don’t want to find that out during the display, do I? I need to prepare for that on the ground so that if something happens I know what I’ll do.” So mastery certainly I feel is relevant. Yeah, I’ll stick with that.

Cameron:         Okay, great stuff – thank you! Coming to more of a wrap-up of this conversation – and thank you again, Matthew, for your time – if we could leave some parting advice to a young aviator, or maybe someone in a different sport or activity, or a musician who is looking to find flow more frequently… In terms of finding flow more frequently in that bubble, what’s one advice that you’d want to impart?

Matthew:          Find out what it is that puts you into that calm state, that you accept your adrenalin is surging, the pressure to perform, but find out… Is it just a couple of deep breaths and a smile, think of your wife or your children? For me it was just take a deep breath, close my eyes… and understand what it is I’m about to do, and aren’t I incredibly fortunate to be in a position to do this, just to… [takes a deep breath and exhales] smile at PK, shake his hand, get up the ladder.

Cameron:         Okay, fantastic – I’d imagine that would help manage the stress and get you to an arousal level that you would probably want to be at for flying.

Matthew:          Definitely.

Cameron:         Fantastic!

Matthew:          Thank you!

Cameron:         And lastly, we always ask people what is their biggest challenge or biggest fear in your life so we get some relativity to someone who has been at the top of their game in very pressured situations. What’s life outside the cockpit for Matthew and what’s your biggest challenge moving forwards?

Matthew:          Life outside the cockpit, my biggest challenge… Hell’s bells! [long pause] I think, interestingly enough, it’s being able to accept that that position of flow, that incredible feeling I’ve had as a display pilot, I’m going to find that elsewhere in life and there will be other things. That can be as being a parent, a husband, or in my new career as a professional coach, certainly. Very recently I’ve had that moment of going, “My goodness, things are happening… having thought about it and rehearsed…” It’s come back in a completely unexpected situation which I wasn’t prepared for if I’m honest! [laughs] It was good, it was a good feeling though, it was… I was going to say it was addictive, but I’m not saying it’s addictive. It’s just a very intoxicating feeling for me when you’re in flow. I know what it’s like, I know how to put myself in it and I’m going to take it across into my new career.

Cameron:         Great stuff – thank you, Matthew! Thank you for listening, we’ve had some fantastic stories there and some advice about how important focus on mastery throughout your training can be, especially when the consequences can be very high, and the feeling of control when you’re in that flow moment and how you can feel so connected and at one with the equipment around you, that that leads to that instant decision-making and perception of control within that bubble. We look forwards to bringing you some more flow sessions, thanks for tuning in and please get in touch if you can relate to any of these stories, we would love to hear your perspective about it. Bye for now!

Flow Training – Maximising Performance in Rock Climbing – Case Study

Flow Training – Maximising Performance in Rock Climbing – Case Study

Flow Sports Tips and Training Videos

We are delighted to announce some great results on a recent study with rock climbers receiving flow training. The climbers received 4 different types of training over a 3 month period and the results far exceeded our expectations.

Below is Camille’s account of what happened. Camille is a budding adventure enthusiast who competes in a multitude of sports and a true inspiration. She runs a great blog for those wanting to see how she quit her job to focus on a life worth living: http://www.farandhigh.co.uk/

Over to Camille and her a piece, she wrote to go on her blog.

I was delighted when Cameron, the training coach from the Flow Centre, offered me to be part of the group of elite climbers selected for a case study on flow training.

Initially, I didn’t know what the flow mindset was and it is thanks to the study that I learnt more about it.

Flow is the optimal mental state that produces performance, creativity, decision-making and innovation.”

Flow is a psychological state we experience during our peak experiences and is behind many of the greatest athletic performances.  It is the state when we perform at our best and feel our best.

As part of the study, the climbers were asked to complete the same indoor climbing route twice a week, time ourselves and then complete a questionnaire straight after each climb including questions on our performance and our flow state.  We were also asked to rate our overall climb.  As weeks progressed, we were provided with training and individual coaching sessions on flow.


Throughout this experience, I’ve learnt some great tips on how to train your mind to get into the flow state and how to maintain that state. I thought I’d share the most valuable ones to me.

  1. Motivation to perform

For me, motivation to perform is the biggest contributor to get me into a flow state, i.e. the desire to get to the top of the route.  When the motivation is missing, my performance suffers.  When the motivation is at its best and I truly want to reach the top, I’m enjoying the moment and I give it me all.

  1. Total Focus

Secondly, finding focus is key to get me in the right state of mind.  I need to completely shut down the outside world around me.  For example, I need to ignore other climbers watching or shouting tips during a training session (sorry, I know you’re only trying to help J).  This is especially true during a climbing competition when I find the audience very unnerving and it makes me anxious.  So I need to completely zone out my surroundings and forget about my ego, so I can totally concentrate on the task at hand.

  1. Be in the Present

To reach and maintain flow, I need to be completely focused on the present moment. I can’t be thinking about anything else other than each move as it unfolds.  If I’m already thinking about reaching the top whilst I’m only half way up, my mind is not in the present.

  1. Challenging Route

The climb has to be challenging enough for me to get into the flow state.  If it is during the warm-up or an easy climb, it’s not motivating enough for me to really be in the flow.

  1. Physical Readiness & Self belief

I’ve found that my perception of my physical fitness and readiness to climb a route has an impact on my ability to reach and maintain the flow state. If I feel physically ready and capable, then I feel in control and there are no limits!

  1. Fear of falling

When I have reached the flow state, I am so focused on each move that there is no holding back and I forget about the fear of falling (even in the dreaded overhangs!).

With the help of our coach Cameron, I have come up with my climbing mantra which I now repeat to myself at the start of each climb, and sometimes in the middle:

  1. Focus
  2. Precision
  3. Power
  4. Excel

Repeating the mantra in my mind has been very effective to help me get into the flow when everything seems to come together and I perform to my highest standard.


To conclude, my personal results from the route I climbed during the study are:

  • Route: 14m 6C+ route
  • 1st attempt completed in 9min23s.
  • After having received the training and coaching on flows, I completed the climbing route on my 15thattempt in 2min10s.

Of course, once I knew my results, my first question was related to the fact that even without the coaching, my performance would have improved naturally just by the experience gained by every attempt and the increased memorization of the moves.  However, this was minimised by having us only start the training and coaching on flows once our performances had plateaued and we weren’t climbing faster at each attempt.

Finally, being part of the study and learning about applying flows for sporting performance was definitely eye opening and a great opportunity for me in the pursuit of following my passion for the sport and performing the best I can.

These techniques can, of course, be applied to any experiences in life.  I’m also currently working on applying these techniques to my running and learning to find the flow state during a run J  So I’ve now created a mantra for running as well …

Flow Interview Lucy Hare – BBC Symphony Orchestra

Flow Interview Lucy Hare – BBC Symphony Orchestra

Flow Music Tips and Training


Lucy Hare is a double bass player, sitting in the world of classical world music. She’s played for the BBC Symphony Orchestra, the BBC Concert Orchestra, the London Philharmonic Orchestra, the Royal Opera House Orchestra, the Tango Volcano, and the Oxford Concert Party.

She will share with us her group Flow experiences, how she connects with with her instrument and with the energy of the room and some of her tips that help her to get into this amazing state.



Cameron:  I’m just going to ask you initially just to explain one or two Flow experiences, it can be either in training or performance, where you felt that you’ve hit that zone, you’ve hit that bubble, and you found a bit of freedom in that Flow space. So we’d love to hear where it was, when it was, and some of the characteristics that happened during that Flow experience.

Lucy: Okay. The one that comes to mind, because I’ve done so many different things with my playing obviously over the years, but one really comes to mind, which is a kind of group Flow in a way, but for me it was personal as well. It was at one of the Prom concerts, the London Prom Concerts in the Royal Albert Hall, and we were playing Strauss’ Alpine Symphony which is a massive work, it has alpenhorns in it and cowbells and an orchestra of about 120 or something, it’s an incredible piece of music. It’s a great piece, it’s challenging but it’s playable for us, and there was a moment in the middle…

We were playing it with the most incredible conductor, which isn’t always the case, but this was a really wonderful, amazing Russian conductor, and there was a moment where the orchestra kind of felt we turned a corner, we all turned it together and there was this incredible moment of feeling as if the whole orchestra, so it’s 120 people, were on the point of their toes and turned this corner together. For me afterwards, it was just this fantastic point of being completely with the orchestra, with the other people, but also completely one with my instrument and my technique and the room. Everything just came together in that spot, that moment, that sort of sweet spot in a way. So that was a very memorable case of Flow for me.

Cameron: Wow – that sounds really fascinating! I talk a lot about jazz musicians finding Flow because of it being spontaneous and connecting with one another and feeding off one another, but it’s really interesting to hear that you found that collective, group experience where you were almost on a tipping point. Was that something that happened a flip of a coin, or was that something that progressed a processed slowly? Did you feel like you were feeding off others, or was it a case of you were in your Flow and you found other people in a similar space?

Lucy: Yeah, really good questions. I’m not sure what other people were doing, but I think if I had to choose one thing it would depend on really, it would really be the leadership we were getting at that moment, so the conductor, he took the time to let us turn that corner together. But I think it’s not as simple as that actually, I think it came from also the sort of micro details, where everybody being in control of their technique and their ability to manage that moment technically on whatever instrument they were playing, and all kind of taking that point of poise in a way.

(…) And with music things like your tuning of your instrument, so everybody probably was playing really well in tune, there’s a kind of resonance that happens when everyone plays together and well that you don’t get when… It can sound together but it doesn’t have that resonance if people aren’t really hitting that sweet spot in a way.

Cameron: It sounds like as everyone else is hitting their sweet spot and the notes are, dare I say, perfect. You feed off one another, you hear it and it helps you up your game, and you get to that base where performing in that higher state is easier. Is that correct?

Lucy: Yeah. I think… There is something about your antennae, about… You have to obviously take care of your own technique, and that takes years and years and years of work, and hours every day probably, but then there’s also something about your awareness about the person sitting next to you. We play in sections in an orchestra, so the section of eight double basses, then there’ll be the string section which is bigger again, so it kind of fans out, and then there’s the whole orchestra. So you have all these different levels of awareness, and if they all come together, so both intonations – the pitch, the tuning – but also the timing… Timing is such a fine art I think, and there’s no… I was going to say there’s no exact science to it, I bet there is [laughs], it appears a very mathematical thing, but I think it has something that’s much more magical than that actually. So I think all those things coming together. Yeah, so you have to kind of perfect what you’re doing, but it’s a greater thing that perfection I think.

Cameron: So practically speaking, when you’re in let’s say at that moment, the moment you’ve just explained… To me there’s a lot going on there: you got the notes in front of you, you got the conductor, you’ve got your instrument, you’ve got where your fingers are, you’ve got the audience around you, you’ve got colleagues. Where is your focus? What are you focus on and aware on? Is it a case of you are hyperaware of everything and you’re playing effortlessly? Or is it a case of you’re actually highly focused on one thing, which is your notes and your… Where is your focus and your awareness?

Lucy: That’s a really good question. I would be really interested to hear the answer to your question from a sportsperson who plays in a team as well. I think my focus has to be everywhere actually. I don’t know biologically if you can do that, but I think the micro stuff, so your own technique… your main focus has to already have been done on that, with your practice, your personal practice, then the rehearsals in the orchestra. (…). Maybe that’s partly what creates the moment of Flow is that you can lift it. It really feels like a moment of poise to me with the group thing, that you have that time of balance and you can go in any direction, and your concentration is wide as well as being very centred.

Cameron: Yeah. You’re describing the many paradoxes of Flow, where we feel out of control but completely in control, and action and awareness kind of merge, where you’re feeling intricately a part of every second that’s going on, but at the same time it’s almost as if someone else is doing the actions and performing for you. It is very much a paradoxical state, because biologically speaking the prefrontal cortex and the conscious mind is not really in charge of the functioning and the operation at that time, so they’re kind of the logical and critique side of our brains that wants to analyse that experience and understand what’s going on isn’t in the room. It’s the subconscious that’s working that experience. And then when we come back to experience it, we look at it from a conscious brain as we’re talking now and it tries to make sense of these things that would normally happen through the conscious brain. They feel and sound so paradoxical, but in the world of experiencing a moment and performing through the subconscious, it’s a very normal experience to be looking at the minutiae but also taking in the bigger picture.

So, what out of the 9 dimensions to Flow… I know you’ve had a quick look at them. What are the ones that really resonate for you in terms of practically finding Flow?

Lucy: I had a look at your list, and one of the main things is about level of challenge actually. Certainly with playing the bass, if there’s a level of challenge that is strong but not overwhelming, that’s key for me personally. If the challenge is overwhelming, I’m kind of in my head, saying, “You need to do this, you need to play it this way, play it this way, you’ve got to prepare, you’ve got to get your elbow in the right place, your fingers have got to be strong, you’ve got to play this faster, you didn’t practice this enough!” the little voice on my shoulder is going 100 miles an hour. So if the challenge level is strong but manageable and I’ve done the pre-work, then that is very likely to lead to a sense of Flow I think for me personally, not necessarily the group thing. So that’s really important.

And also, the other thing is we do repeat performances quite a lot if we’re doing a show or dance work or something, so you might do 30 or 50 performances of exactly the same show and they want it the same every night (…) The danger there is that you get very bored, so then you have to crank up the challenge and obviously technically you can’t because it’s the same music. So I personally do that by imagining the situation to be more alarming or scary  (…)That can sometimes give it a slightly different state of… Yeah, very different state to the one I described earlier, a different state of Flow, but it’s a kind of… It then frees me from the boredom of what’s happening, and the repetition becomes almost like a sort of meditation, focusing in on each part but also then again being able to lift your mind away from it to other things and see the bigger picture. (…)

Cameron: Yeah, absolutely. And the challenge-skill balance that you’ve just discussed is one of the primary dimensions of Flow, and the applied elements to Flow that the Flow Centre has come up with, one of the elements is sufficient challenge. Us as performers need to take responsibility and manage that, whether that’s in our mind or the environment or the context, or playing around with our equipment to make it a little bit more challenging or less challenging, familiarising ourselves with it before a performance so we’re not distracted by the nuances of a grip or this, that or the other, as I’m sure you do when you get a new piece of equipment.

So what leading up to a performance, either these performances or other performances that you’re thinking of… You’ve mentioned a couple of times you’re lifting your mind, almost stepping up a gear into Flow if you like, so you’re playing and the event is happening and then you move on. What, in your experience or opinion, helps that happen? So in terms of preparation leading up to the event, so the morning of, an hour before, and then during, how do you… What do you focus on? What rituals do you use? Any tips that you can share with others that you might have adopted over time?

Lucy: I think the preparation for me is all done in advance really, so the practice and the learning of the skills and the deepening of the skills, and that’s done, as I said, the day before, the week before, but 30 years before as well. So, with rituals… (…) I need to get my head backstage probably half an hour before a performance and keep it there in the interval, because if you come out it’s strange, it disrupts the bubble in a way that… that I inhabit anyway, I just talk about myself.

I think it’s probably quite common, but I only know for me, that you kind of inhabit this bubble during concert. And the minute it’s over, then it’s fine, you can do anything, but before it I need… In a way it’s a quiet space. It might not be quiet orally, but it’s a quiet space inside me. And often we put our instruments on the stage before the concert so they’re already on there, maybe from the rehearsal or something, but a lot of people have their instruments in their hand to warm up with backstage; we don’t have that luxury because our instruments are big. So it’s quite nice to make sure your hands are warm and clean and actually get them active… I’m sitting here while I’m talking to you, squeezing my hands. If you have a juggling ball or something, it’s quite nice to have that, or just need something with your hands. So they’re kind of physical preparations, and the mental one is more about staying in that bubble really.

(…) So I suppose for me physicality brings me into the moment, and then that is more likely to create a sense of flow.

Cameron: Thanks for that – really, really interesting. I know many people believe that’s the whole purpose of the body, to kind of anchor us to the moment. Our mind is always wanting to go into the future and the past, and it’s staying with that breath, or, as you said, feeling your feet on the floor and back against the chair can really kind of bring us back into that moment where we can stretch time, as opposed to running into the future or critiquing the past. We’re coming to an end now, but a little golden nugget for any young musicians out there in terms of what advice you could give to them towards finding Flow, not necessarily as a career but finding Flow in their music when they’re practicing, when they’re spending the hours at home, burning their fingers away, practicing? How could you kind of say, “Maybe try this and that might lead you to more Flow experiences.”?

Lucy: I think one of the things, which we haven’t actually talked about, is do something you love, and if that is playing your instrument, then do it; if it’s not, then maybe look at doing something else, or do it in a way that you can love it. I think really one of the key things is practice, getting the technical challenges really nailed down as soon as you can. To a musician this will make sense: if there’s a piece of music, don’t practice it from beginning to end. Look at the bits that are going to really challenge you and really focus on them, so that when it comes to it you know exactly what you’re doing with your fingers and you can lift your concentration to what else is going on. So focus on the bits that you don’t want to go anywhere near. I suppose that would be my key message.

Cameron: Perfect. Which leads me nicely to our closing question, which is for you what is you going beyond, what is a fear for you, either in your performance world or not in your performance world, where you feel is going beyond?

Lucy: I think for me just passion actually, to do something that I’m passionate about and that stretches me, and actually I love doing those two things usually so my bass playing is that, and a lot of other things I do in life are things that fit those two things. Yeah, so passion and stretch probably.

Cameron: Okay – thank you very much, Lucy! We’ve had a fantastic conversation looking at all sorts of topics, from collective Flow to the challenge-skill balance, to integrating training and ensuring the biology and the muscle memory is all there. Lots of really interesting points, and we’d love to get your opinions, any musicians out there, on Lucy’s comments, so please get in touch and we look forwards to speaking to you soon – thank you very much!


Click here to listen to the full interview


We would like to thank again Lucy Hare for sharing with us her story and I would recommend to go and see her in action and feel that group flow experience that she talks about.


Flow Interview – World Champion Rock Climber Hazel Findlay

Flow Interview – World Champion Rock Climber Hazel Findlay

Articles To Inspire Flow Performance Skills Sports Tips and Training

Meet Hazel Findlay. Hazel has won multiple National Championships (UK) and is considered one of, if not the, best female climber worldwide. Hazel became the first woman to climb a British E9 (hard and scary!) with her ascent of Once Upon A Time In The Southwest, near Devon, UK. She has been recovering from injuries this past year but will no doubt be taking the climbing scene by storm when she returns.


Hazel is a great friend of The Flow Centre and continues to inspire us month-on-month. In one of our sessions with Hazel we got to ask her about here flow experinces

What was one of your biggest flow experiences?


It was actually on one of the smaller cliffs, but right up in the corner where it formed a right angle. I find that sort of climb really interesting because instead of using your hands and feet to find and grip holds, you basically have to push against each side of the opposing walls. Your hands are just flat against the rock, with no reaches to aim for, you basically have to only listen to your body position; you can’t really let the rock guide you too much. There’s no “Oh, I’ll reach that hold and I’ll reach for this hole kind of thing”, you just have to get it exactly right for that next bit of upward movement. So Yeah, this particular moment at the top was just a classic flow experience, where it’s just like, I was in this! You know the descriptions!![laughter]
It was really intense and it was just complete focus on every little movement. I remember the breathing being in time because the climb was really physical as well. I just remember the breathing intensified with each movement, using my whole core to stay in this corner of the rock. It’s funny, when I was in flow, it was like I’ll finish that little piece of rock and then I can’t remember anything about what I did. Then when you get down, the other climbers will say “How did you do that?” and when I’m in those flow moments I’m like “Oh, I’m really sorry, but I just don’t know what I did, I just did something”.

So what was it like in the experience? How did you approach the rock?


During the climb, it was like every time I put a foot on the rock I could see all the little features, my foot was exactly where it was supposed to go kind of thing. I think time almost slowed down, if anything. I’ve got vivid memories of my foot in slow motion, because there was so much detail in the moment, you know what I mean? I was just in a little pocket of time and space, me and that little of piece of rock like the only thing that’s there.
I don’t know if I’d go as far as to say I was an extension of the rock. But one thing I think happens when climbing is the movements are kind of binary. Like it’s “right foot, right hand, left foot, left hand”, very specific movements that are all separate. It’s also binary in the sense that you either do it or you don’t! But in a flow state, it feels like the movements aren’t divided into separate moves anymore. You know what I mean? It’s not like you’re moving from one movement to the next movement; it’s all just one complete movement in flow.



So, in that corner it was like I was moving up, and it wasn’t this awkward “right-left” kind of thing, it was all just one fluid motion of the rock kind of thing. Am I an extension of the rock? I think it’s more like what I was saying. The rock doesn’t provide the sort of black and white challenge, like “I did that move or I didn’t”, or “I did that piece”. I suppose it’s very much linked to the idea of success-failure, goal and everything. I’ve always found that when I’m in that flow I totally let go of that desire to succeed and to do the route. I’m just so focused on the next move and the next bit of climbing.
You know, when I start a route I’m like “Okay, come on! You can do it!” – You know, all that positive thinking is running through your head. Or if you’re having a negative day it might be like “Oh, I feel like sh** – just give it your best shot anyway”. Whereas when you’re in flow, all of those ideas about yourself versus the rock kind of thing just fall away. So usually if I’m in that flow, even if I fall off and I fail, I usually don’t care because I know that I was climbing my absolute best because I was in that state. So it just doesn’t bother me that I failed, because what more could I have wanted from that experience? Nothing, because I was doing my best. So, that’s why I love it so much!!

I always feel like it’s the rock that forces me to be in flow. I never really feel like it’s me, but maybe I should take some more ownership of it. There never seems to be a correlation between my thoughts and feeling and how I access flow. I’ve accessed flow on really bad days, when my thoughts have been totally negative and I’m really unconfident. But then just something about the climb I’m doing forces me into it. I can have good days and just access it for some reason, I don’t know! I just feel like it’s the rock!
I totally agree with this “skill meets challenge” idea, because I really think it has to be quite hard for me to access flow. Sometimes I can access flow on easier grounds, but it’s a bit like when you’re driving a car. Often there’ll be other thoughts going through your head, so it’s not as intense and experience of flow. But it’s the sort of thing where I’m just moving up the rock and I might get to the top and not really remember anything about the climb. I was thinking about something completely different; that’s when the challenge is way below my skill set. I’m not as good at harnessing flow during those climbs. I see other people climb much better than me on easier ground, but I tend to let my internal dialogue stop me from reaching flow on easy terrain. That’s something I want to work on.


When do you most experience flow?

It’s being on the hard routes, on hard rock climbs. That’s the thing about climbing on natural rock; no-one made it, no-one designed it. So really it’s just chance whether that meets your skill set or not. So there might be a particular route where I might be in flow, but then I get to a section where I just can’t reach the holds, I’m not tall enough or strong enough or whatever, then I’ll just fail. I’ll snap out of flow; the challenge became too hard for me. So really, I feel like it’s the rock that forces me into flow, because it just so happens that the rock, the way the holds are, the way my body moves, it just fits the rock.
I think it’s strange; climbing is maybe quite different to other conventional sports. What often happens when you climb is that you get to a point where you can rest and you can think. So you look at the rock ahead and problem solve your way through it even before you do it. I think one of the keys to climbing well is to, in that restful position, consciously have a plan and problem solve, but then as soon as you start climbing try and switch into that unconscious state that we’re talking about. Really let your body take control and use your subconscious mind. But you have to remember what your conscious mind was telling you to do. That’s what makes climbing different.


The Flow Centre would like to take this opportunity to thank Martina for her time and energy.

Skiing Avalanche Terrain – Group factors to Flow – Jon Turk

Skiing Avalanche Terrain – Group factors to Flow – Jon Turk

Articles To Inspire Flow Sports
Jon Turk has ja heart like a cauliflower, and a zest for flow like no other. Jon was an adventurer finalist for Canadian “National Magazine Awards” (2015 – Frozen Iceman), voted top 10 adventure athletes in 2012 by National Geographic, and canoe and kayak: expedition of the year in 2012.

Jon has practiced performance FLOW for decades, and reminds us that there are a multitude of factors that go in to a flow experience, none more so being on the same wavelength as your group.



I am a back-country skier, and I routinely ski exposed avalanche terrain in the mountains of southern British Columbia.   A few weeks ago, four of us were shredding fresh powder on familiar terrain.  The riding was excellent, friendships warm, and spirits were high.  All day, the snow had been stable, meaning that we experienced no avalanches or even indication of danger.  On the last run, as the short winter day was waning, two of our party led us toward a higher, steeper, more exposed ridge line. As we climbed into this alpine zone, we reached an elevation where the mountain wind had compacted the surface of the snow into hard, rigid, consolidated, potentially deadly chunks.


This was no subtle change. As experienced alpinists, we all saw it, felt it, and knew the consequences of a bad decision. So why didn’t we turn back?


The ultimate, overriding, goal of back-country skiing is to come home safe. All too frequently, we tend to forget this goal and create other imaginary goals such as to climb higher, faster, longer, and to ski the steepest line. But compared to safety, these supposed goals are merely dangerous distractions generated by our think-too-much-know-it-all brains. The primary driver of a FLOW experience is to concentrate completely and utterly on the real and ultimate goal and to avoid sidetracks, distractions, ego, and “I wants”. Yet, within a group, distractions can easily arise, fester, and quickly multiply.


One person climbed into the dangerous wind-slab, eager to be the leader that brought the group onward toward the best line of the day. We all like to “ski the goods”, so that is always a distraction from the overriding goal of safety. But now, there was social pressure not to be the wimp, the cold blanket who said, “Hey, guys. I think we should turn back.” Two distractions steering us away from FLOW – internal and external. And the distractions fed on one another. I thought, “We don’t need to do this,” but then I threw attention and awareness out the window, and allowed myself to concentrate on what mattered least (A few extra turns. Not to be criticized by the group.) And not what mattered most (Our lives).  So against all reason, I followed the leader toward a dangerous situation. I felt hassled and grumpy. I questioned my own judgment, the judgment of others. “Why can’t we just ski from here?” I mumbled, quietly, almost to myself.

Suddenly, my wife, Nina, stopped. I was in line behind her.

“What’s up?” I asked.

“I’m not going up there,” she replied.


At first, I was internally annoyed at her. Those guys were going to ski the coolest line, and I wanted to be up there with them. But the physical pause initiated a mental pause which solidified a physical pause. Reason prevailed. We held back.


The lead skier started an avalanche and went catapulting down the mountainside in a moving white river.  Amazingly, he didn’t get hurt.  We were lucky.


There are always more distractions than FLOW paths. Entropy works like that. A near infinity of ways to do something wrong and only a limited number of ways to do something right. Group dynamics, within a family, at work, or during play are powerful. All the more reason to understand and practice FLOW.



The Flow Centre would like to take this opportunity to thank Jon for her time and energy.

Overclocking Yourself

Overclocking Yourself

Flow Performance Skills Tips and Training


Humans are compared to computers all the time. We both seem to be made up of memory, bandwidth and communication devices all processing at varying of speeds. Most notably, the human brain is often described as the most powerful computer in nature. So imagine the intrigue, when watching a lecture on flow, a question at the end came up: ‘when we overclock computer components they degrade faster, is hacking into flow just overclocking our bodies?’ Short answer; no. But let’s dig a little deeper.

Normally when someone talks about overclocking their computer, they specifically mean the processor (CPU). (I won’t go into architectural detail of CPU’s, as we would be here for weeks, but it is fascinating stuff if you’re interested) It carries out all the complex calculations and keeps all the other components running in time with each other. It is essentially the ‘processing brain’ of the computer. So the CPU has a standard ‘base’ clock speed that it runs at, but with some computer witchcraft, you can make it run at a faster speed e.g. 3.6Ghz to 4.4Ghz, improving and potentially hitting its peak performance.

You might be thinking that’s no big deal, if it can cope with the higher speed, just run it at that. But this is the issue, and where our flow comparison comes in. In order to run at that higher clock speed, the component is stressed beyond what is the standard level and so degrades faster than if it was processing at the lower speed. This is how basically all man-made objects perform, if you push it further, it degrades quicker.

Digital Brain

So with all the similarities between humans and computers, does this mean that when we hack into flow, achieve a flow state more often than a normal person, peaking for longer periods, our body will decay faster due to the extra stress on its ‘components’? Well, no it won’t. Your body is not man-made, so to speak. When you train your body, it improves the quality of its components. Think of a tennis player. By training, they improve the condition of their body, allowing them to reach a flow state during their performance. This doesn’t mean they have a shorter life or lose the ability to walk sooner than anyone else. If anything it gives them a longer and better standard of life into a late age as they are constantly improving the body’s capacity.

However, one of the downsides of being human, and being very conscious beings, is that we cannot be in flow all of the time. So we are unlikely to ever really test this question to its entirety. So don’t be scared to overclock yourself through flow. You will find that you are simply unlocking the potential you have always had; growing in strength and resilience, allowing you to go further than you ever thought you could.

Flow Interview – Sarah Hendrickson – World Champion Ski Jumper

Flow Interview – Sarah Hendrickson – World Champion Ski Jumper

Articles To Inspire Flow Performance Skills Quotes Stories

For those that don’t know Sarah Hendrickson, meet one of the most exciting female athletes around.
Sarah Hendrickson is an American ski jumper who won the first ever women’s World Cup season in 2012. She is a 22-time World Cup medalist and 13-time Continental Cup medalist. It goes without saying, but we were delighted to catch up with here and even more delighted to have her on board The Flow Centre.

Her career highlights include:
• 22-time World Cup Medalist (13 Gold, 6 Silver, 3 Bronze)
• 13-time Continental Cup Medalist (4 Gold, 4 Silver, 5 Bronze)
• 2014, Olympic Winter Games, 21st
• 2013, World Cup, Second Place Overall
• 2013, World Championships Gold Medalist
• 2012, World Cup Overall Champion
• 2011, U.S. Normal Hill Champion
• 2011, World Championships Normal Hill 16th place
• 2009, World Championships Normal Hill 29th place

Anyway, enough intro, let’s get on with what Sarah had to say.

So tell me about your flow experiences.

I think that time at the world championships. I remember being at the top and just so nervous. I was like “I can’t feel my feet right now! I don’t know how I’m going to do this!” and then I got to the bottom after my second jump, and obviously had won, and it was like something else took over my body, because there was so much pressure and everything. I don’t know how I performed to that level with that much pressure, my mind just took over and muscle memory and everything. It was like “Okay, you know what to do subconsciously, and just focus”. It’s kind of hard to explain.

Yeah, especially when you remember it. You get all those feelings and tingly sensations, and then you’re like “But, but… How did it happen?!”

Yeah, exactly!

So, describe some of the characteristics that you might have felt during it? You said everything felt amazing. Can you go into a little bit more about how that felt, or what you feel you experienced?

I guess effortless is almost the right word. Your body is doing all these things, but it’s subconscious, you don’t have to think about it right there. It’s hard to explain, I guess effortless and flawless, almost numb. But that’s the first experience I think of when you describe flow, the world championships in Italy in 2013.

We have two jumps and I was winning after the first jump, then we jump in reverse order, so I was going last on the second jump. The girl before me was within a small margin of me; she jumped and I could hear the crowd cheering. I was just trying to block everything out and focus on myself. I remember thinking “My feet are numb!” I was kind of freaking out, thinking “How am I going to pull this off?” then I was just like “Well, nothing to lose now. Just shake it out.” That’s when the hours of training comes in, the muscle memory, your mind just goes into reserve mode, just don’t focus on the pressure, don’t focus on the small details; everything will run its course.


What did you do to help you focus and get into that state?

I blocked out the outside world. When I’m jumping, I’ve been jumping for 13 years now, I just focus on one or two really simple things. It doesn’t mean anything to the outside world because they’re technical terms for ski jumping, but I relax my arms, balance and timing. Timing is so important in ski jumping, timing and rhythm. So, I just pick those two things that I had been focusing on and just zero in on that, everything else will just come. I didn’t need to focus on the other stuff because I was in that mind set, the muscle memory or whatever would just take over.

When you focus on it, do you repeat the words, like relax your arms? Or, do you almost use the words to brainwash yourself? How do you focus on it?

Yeah, exactly! Part of me is hearing the announcers and people calling scores or whatever of the girls in front of me. So, I try to speak to myself as loudly as I can in my head so that I don’t hear the outside. I’ll even try and shake my head so that I don’t hear. I just don’t want to hear that, you can’t think about jumping a certain distance, that’s not how it happens. You have to focus on the miniscule things, that’s going to make you jump further. Repetition and even whispering words out loud sometime, or just yelling in my head.

What else do you think helps you get into that zone? Is there preparation that you might do leading up to it the morning of, the evening of? Or anything else that you do as you’re walking up the steps, preparing, or when you’re sitting down, or just before you take off?

Yeah, repetition actually, and not just in words. I have the same warm-up routine that I do a certain time before a jump. How I put my equipment on and stuff. I’m kind of OCD, so those things are just zeroed in. I know exactly what time I need to put on my stuff, when I’m waiting at the top, 10 jumpers before my tie my boots a little tighter the step out and start putting my skis on. Repetition is really, really important for me, just doing the same thing over and over, and I do it the same for training. You need to compete like you train and train like you compete. Have that same physical repetition and the mental preparation the same every single day.

Do you have any other big flow experiences? Maybe one that tops the world championship?

It’s a bit different, because I didn’t have a good result, but I guess doing the Olympics. I had some serious surgery about five and a half months before Sochi. I managed to get through rehab, but I just wasn’t as prepared as I wanted to be, but my coaches felt like I deserved to be there.
The training days leading up, my knee was in so much pain and I knew I wasn’t mentally strong enough and prepared to be there, then on competition day I got unlucky with the wind. But, my practice jump that morning, we always get one practice jump, my coach just looked at me and was like “Oh my God – that was a million times better!” He was like “You showed up for game day! Regardless of the pain you’re in and everything you’ve been through these past six months, you just put it all aside, and your body knew exactly what to do, and you had an awesome jump!”
I was just in that kind of mindset. I just pushed the pain away, pushed every doubt and piece of junk that I’d gone through out of me and just had a normal jump. And my coaches saw it. The coaches from the other nations saw it too, it was kind of crazy. It was like even though it had been a while my body still knew what to do.

What helped you jump that morning?

I don’t know! I just thought “Don’t have any regrets. You’ve Sarah1trained so hard to be here. Maybe you’re not at your strongest but you’ve worked so hard, now let’s prove it”. I had to change my warm-up and everything, my knee was so bad I couldn’t even run. But I figured I’ve got three more jumps today, then I’m done. After today I can just rest and reassess everything. I had another surgery after that, but it didn’t matter at that point, I was just like “Show them what you’ve got!” I’m ultra-competitive obviously, which makes it easier to get into that mindset.
You have to find a balance between focused and almost not too serious, though. If you try to hard when you’re super competitive in ski jumping it just doesn’t work. We all say that technically, it’s a very simple sport, but it’s against everything that your body wants to do, so when you get too focused there’s no flow to it. It’s too choppy; it’s not smooth and out of rhythm. So when you stay relaxed and just focus on a couple of things everything is much smoother, develops the power better and it all just comes together much better than trying to force it.

So what do you do to help yourself stay relaxed?

Well, I’m friends with a lot of the girls from the other nations, so we’ll all be talking at the top of the hill, kind of joking around before getting ready to go. Like if it’s been a bad day and I’m kind of down on myself I think “I’m not going to pull of the best jump right now, but look at the view! Think how hard you worked to get here, you’re so fortunate to be here.” I just kind of step back and make the most of the situation, because competing is really stressful. This is the best job in the world, but it’s stressful.
Sometimes that’s easy to get down on, then I think “why do I put so much pressure on myself?” I try to step away from all that negativity and just appreciate where I am. You can’t have a good day every day and the people that really matter, the ones closest to me, they know that I’ve worked really hard to get here and are just like “Alright, shrug it off, you can’t be on top every single day.”

The Flow Centre would like to take this opportunity to thank Sarah Hendrickson and the Wasserman Group for their time and energy.

Stop Living In The Past

Stop Living In The Past

Flow Performance Skills Sports

Scientists at the Salk Institute for Biological Studies in California have discovered that our minds are lying to us. There is a limit to how fast our brain can digest information. To make things easier on itself, it predicts what will happen next.

Think of a plane flying overhead, it’s not going to suddenly start flying backwards, so our brains predict the path of the plane and that’s how we are able to see what is going on in the present. But what happens when something does change in an instant? That’s where the flash lag effect comes in (to test this out try a simple Google search). The research in this area has revealed a delay of, on average, 80 milliseconds between something happening and the mind being able to process it. Meaning that we spend our life living in what has actually just happened, not what is actually happening. Let’s take a second or two to pause – we are never actually present in real time! Really?!

Thinking of planes again, this time at night when the lights on it are flashing, the flash of light often appears to be behind the plane. That’s because your mind has predicted, correctly, where the plane will be, but the sudden flash of light was an unknown. The 80 millisecond delay in processing means that you see the light flashing behind the plane, where it was 80 milliseconds ago.

Red Arrows

The intriguing thing for us, as flow seekers, is what if we can reduce that 80 millisecond delay? This article from Salk specifically says that the time delay is an average and it’s likely that someone like a fighter pilot has a shorter delay – and so lives less ‘in the past’ and more ‘in the now’. This comes as no surprise that a fighter pilot is likely to be in a state of flow most of the time when pulling off incredible manoeuvers, whilst flying at mach 3. However, how can we reduce this delay in our everyday experiences and performances?

“Practice dear Watson, practice!” (Sherlock Holmes)

Our visual awareness seems to change in flow, as we become highly aware of all the small detail that gives us the much needed feedback we require for perfect decision making. We know that we get a feeling of time standing still during flow, does this state actually reduce the lag of our experience? In our interview with Nick Troutman(Kayaker), he talks about a run where he starts turning the wrong way down a waterfall and had to correct himself mid-air. If he made this adjustment any later than he did, or not at all, the result could have been catastrophic for him. Nick is able to make these important changes with millisecond precision as a result of being in flow – by his own admission.

Although we don’t know exactly what the millisecond delay may be during flow, we know that the experience is a lot closer to a 0 millisecond delay than our everyday experiences. In flow we become aware of everything instantly, process information instantly and are able to react to what happens immediately – is this living in the present?

“Elementary dear Watson, elementary!”

For years people have called a flow state ‘being in the zone’, although this is not entirely accurate (I sense a different article coming), would a more accurate term be ‘being in the now’?

Flow Interview – Chris ‘Douggs’ McDougall – World Record Holder – Base Jumper – Skydiver

Flow Interview – Chris ‘Douggs’ McDougall – World Record Holder – Base Jumper – Skydiver

Articles To Inspire Flow Performance Skills Quotes Sports Stories Tips and Training

When we went in search of the ultimate base jumper and skydiver, we expected to find someone extraordinary – someone who was used to pushing the limits and had the ability to freeze time. When we finally hooked up with Douggs he was everything we had been looking for and more. Douggs’ wealth of experience is nothing short of outstanding.

Douggs has felt flow frequently, in multiple arenas, and when he is not pretending to be Superman he is a motivational speaker, TV presenter, commentator, author, film maker, and stunt man. Douggs is one of the world’s most experienced BASE jumpers, respected both inside and outside the sport. He is a World Champion, World Record holder, and completed well over 3200 BASE jumps and 7000 skydives across more than 42 countries.

His list of achievements and highlights include: 2014 World Wingsuit League, China – 2013 World Record for most base jumpers jumping indoors – 2013 First ever BASE jumps in Kuwait from Al Hamra Tower – 2013 1st place in World Extreme Base Championships, Spain – 2013 1st place in Accuracy Competitions in both Turkey & China -2012 World first night human slingshot, Dubai – 2011 World BASE Championships, 2nd place -2008 UK ProBase ‘British Open’: Overall Champion – 2003/04 BASE jumping World Champion: 1st place Aerobatics, 1st place Team, 1st place overall – Many expeditions throughout remote parts of the world including, Baffin Island, China, Norway, New Zealand & 37 other countries -1998 – 2003, 6 time Australian National Skydiving Champion in 4 way and 8 way RW – 2001 – 2003 Australian team member for World Championships – 2002 World Record: 300 way skydive – 12 Gold medals in various state events – and much more.

As you can imagine, our interview with Douggs was very insightful.


In skydiving and base jumping it’s (flow) called the zone, but I’ve never heard the actual technical term for it before.

Yeah, yeah. It’s called different things. Jazz musicians call it ‘being in the pocket’. Different people have different names for it, but everyone knows it when you talk about it. You know, it’s that moment where we’re completely engulfed and everything’s just at one, we’re highly connected and time seems to pause, but then you come out of it and then time forwards winds, and you’re like “Oh my God, what just happened?”

I’ve written a number of articles it. There’s no past, no future, there’s just this present. I call it the now.

It’s an incredible feeling. And once you submit to it, that’s… Like, when you’re shaking on the edge or whatever, and then you commit and submit and take those three deep breaths then everything goes still and quiet, and then that beautiful silence that first second is just incredible…and then off we go, and then that’s when you hit it.


——————————–  Chris on starting out  ————————————-


Base jumping has been the best thing ever for me because it’s allowed me to take everything I’ve learnt in jumping and take it to ordinary life, which has just given me endless possibilities; there’s no negatives, only positives. There’s only… You know, the cup’s always half full now. I think that’s the right one. [laughs] Do you know what I mean? Like, I was lucky I got into base jumping super early and found it, and it just blew me away. I mean, on my first skydive I still blacked out for over five seconds, you know, so my brain wasn’t able to process that information at all.

But then I was intrigued by that, went straight back up and did another one. I’ve never been able to get that sensation again, except for—the closest I ever got was when we did a human slingshot a couple of years ago in Dubai, and long story—there’s a video online about it, but we were shooting out so fast that I think we were doing zero to 200 in about a second, about 6-7 Gs, I was able to process the information, but I was almost on my limit of processing it, it was interesting. It’s the only time I got that sensation (complete shut off) back since my first skydive.

I think it’s called sensory overload. It’s where your brain is just receiving too much information and it shuts down. But yeah, you never get it back really, so it’s interesting. I’ve always been intrigued from day one about it all.


——————————–  Chris on his flow experiences ————————————-


Just when you see I’m in a really good state of flow I generally smile [laughs] because it’s just…I’m actually really relaxed. So, that jump (where I was smiling)… It took us five jumps that day to get to that point.

(When in flow) You can just see more, so I see things off in the distance, the cameraman sitting there, and I saw 15 seconds flying past at about 200 Ks/hour, and I smiled at him as I went past super casually. So, that’s… everything’s sort of… Almost happy. [laughs] Like, in this calm trance-like state, but like The Matrix, you know, like “Sh**, it’s actually moving fast” but you’ve just made it all stand still. That’s when I really enjoy it, because everyone’s like “Oh wow, you must get this big adrenaline rush when you do this!” and I’m like “I don’t actually.” [laughs] I get really, really calm and really tranquil.

I was just doing some stuff out of my comfort zone this last week, and sh**’s moving fast still, but when we get comfortable then everything just slows down and it’s just poetic almost; it’s beautiful.

You almost ~not~ feel invincible, that’s a good word for it. You’re just… you’re on another level to everyone and everything around you. I mean, that’s animal instinct, that’s what animals get. They’re always in flow [laughs].

Another way to explain it is, when we jump off a waterfall ~and~ jump in snow, you ~hit~ that microsecond of a point where everything stops, and if you’re in flow, which I generally am, you’d stop for a lot longer than a microsecond. You’re falling at the same speed as the water droplets, or the same speed as the snow, and whilst it’s only a microsecond you can make it last for seconds, and then it speeds up really quick! It’s exactly like the movies basically.

I mean, that’s what The Matrix did, The Matrix put flow into cinema, in my opinion. I always use The Matrix as my way to try and explain it best to the layman, because it shows it clearly on cinema how it all works.


——————————–  Chris on his flow limits ————————————-

In traffic (driving)…I can ~miss~, I can can ~swirve~ and miss and do whatever, I just process that information really, really f**king quickly. And then — one that really stands out, my cousin’s a very good motorbike rider, and we did this trail riding – super fast, super thin – and I couldn’t (find flow) —it was the first time when I was like “Mother f**ker! I can’t keep up with my cousin!”

When he’s riding a bike he’s in flow for sure, but I couldn’t get there – I’m not good enough on a bike. That was the first time I really understood that I wasn’t… not invincible, and I can’t always find flow. Do you know what I mean? Because you walk around just feeling… not better than everyone else, just… like, you f**king own it all the time, you know, and that’s what makes a champion as well; you’ve got to be able to own it. Confidence and arrogance is a fine line, but you’ve got to walk that line all the time, you know.

More arrogant when you’re younger, more confident when you’re older. [laughs]


——————————–  Chris on his preparation for flow ————————————-

What prep helps you get into flow?

For me, training and visualisation for sure.

I mean, I jump all the time, and I’m doing extreme sports all the time. When I’m speed flying, I’m absolutely in flow when I’m speed flying as well, but not while I’m on skis, because I’m a sh** skier; as soon as I take off I can do anything. But training for sure. And I think over time being in mountainous environment and an ocean environment so much… you adapt.… Do you know a guy called Dean Potter?


Very ~advanced~ climber. He’s a good friend of mine now, and watching him in the mountains is just… He is a mountain man, you know, because he can adapt, he’s done so much time in the mountains that it’s second nature for him. He doesn’t use ropes pretty much ever. He can just climb mountains because he’s put himself in that situation. Same as the watermen, your Laird Hamiltons and stuff like that. If I put myself in a situation long enough then the more… And also, I do seminars on aerobatics in base, and what I learnt from doing hardcore aerobatics… You know, like from 450 feet doing four or five flips or whatever… Starting from single flips, learning and then pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing, getting to a point where… Like, for us it’s that we have to, I have to accept my own limitations way earlier than I would like – because I don’t want to die, you know – so I don’t run at 100% ever really.

But, what I’ve learnt was that coming back from say doing four-five flips on a jump to doing one flip on a jump opens the world up way more. So, you sort of need to push yourself that harder and see with blinkers on, to then pull back and be able to see the world with open eyes. That’s really interesting, and it’s very hard to tell a 20-year old kid to do that because they just want to go crazy. But after coming full circle I don’t generally do all the big flips anymore, I just do the slow rotating ones. I’d be upside down, waving at people in a restaurant off a building or something, because I’m in the flow. But being able to do heaps of flips first has helped me reach that perspective. So, now my brain expects me to do all that stuff, and then when I ~lay it back~ a bit then the brain’s like “Oh yeah, this is much cooler!” [laughs] So, I teach people to not fly with blinkers on with everything they doing, to work themselves up to it and not rush into it. Work themselves up to it, and then when you pull back you’re good. But on the other spectrum of that, the guys—I mean, we’ve just lost a friend last year. They were pushing, pushing, pushing; their 100% performance became a normal percent. My normal performance is 30-50 percent now, just because I’ve lost so many friends and I’m having such a great life. But these guys are pushing so hard, their normal becomes 100%. And you almost need 100% sometimes, because we’re not perfect humans, so when these guys need an extra spike they didn’t have it and died from it.

So, I try and teach that a lot as well, because… Yeah, running at 100% all the time… that’s not good for our sport. It’s not surfing where you can sort of get away with it, or skating where you’ll break your ankle or something – we generally die. So, our sport… Whilst our sport is actually one of the safest extreme sports out there, when it goes wrong we die – it’s very simple. It’s not a broken ankle or things like that, so it’s a real tricky one for helping others with that.


Yeah, yeah. I mean, it’s ~powerful~ what makes the skydiving such an amazing sport for flow, in terms of flow, when you think about it. You know, the consequences are so high when you’re pushing it that you’re almost forced into a state of flow. Your senses engage, the mind has to shut off because it just… it can’t compute everything that’s going on and make those decisions that you need to make, and you’re forced into it. What do you do just before you jump off? You mentioned earlier, you said you take a couple of deep breaths and you kind of sit there.


Yeah. Like, off a cliff—planes are different because it’s so noisy and you’ve got to go at the same time, but from a cliff I’ll gear up. These days I’ll just—well, obviously I’ve got a lot of jumps, so it definitely has evolved, but I’m always scared, that’s one key; I’m always making sure I stay scared. That’s one of the key aspects to getting into flow I reckon as well, don’t be overconfident with everything. And then… Yeah, so I’ll gear up and I’ll prep myself on everything. So, the weather, my skill level, my gut feeling that day, the object that I’m jumping off. You know, because sometimes I’ll walk away as well, and sometimes I won’t jump stuff that my students jump. You know, I have my own little… my own path.

But then once I’m geared up I’ll double-check, triple-check everything, make sure I’m cool, and then that way when I go to the edge the only thing I’m scared of is being scared. That’s a key for me as well, because then your mind doesn’t have to think about anything else, it can channel in and focus. And then when it’s time to go… Yeah, generally I’ll be freaking out, but that’s… You’ve got to turn that negative fear into a positive fear. That’s when I’ll take three (deep breaths)—because you’re going to do it anyway [laughs], so you might as well do it correctly. You know, if it gets too much I’d walk away and stuff, but I understand my body and my consciousness.

So yeah, when it is time to go I’ll take… basically calm down, take three deep breaths, and on the third breath or fourth breath or whatever I’ll generally just head off. And that way just before you go you’re completely calm, very tranquil, and about to throw yourself into the unknown. But, I mean, if it’s the unknown unknown then that’s another ball game… Like, I do know the outcome could be bad, but it’s a calculated risk, so it’s a very small chance as such, but it could definitely still happen any jump – I’m no more special than anyone else. But once you put yourself in that position and you go then it’s on, and then you’re just hyperaware of everything.

I’ll always put myself in uncomfortable positions. Like, just recently I was doing this seminar in front of 120 legends of the sport, and then putting myself up to do a song actually at the ~talent night~ in front of the same people.


And I was—they saw me physically shaking with the lyrics, you know, and I still put myself there even though it was f**king terrifying.

But, you know, I like doing that. The song was a good one because I was so nervous and my voice was so sh**ful, and then by the end I’ve got the whole crowd clapping and singing with me because I’d entered flow basically in a different environment and just went into rockstar mode sort of thing, without the talent by the way.

And by the end I was good, and then afterwards I’m like f**king ~freaking~ out again, but I’d hit that for about a minute of that song, I hit the flow basically. And same with the talks as well, you start out nervous. Dean Potter actually helped me, trying to—I try to do as much motivational speaking as I can now to overcome one of my biggest fears, and he said “Just learn the first two sentences.” [laughs] “Just memorise the first two sentences. You’ve got to start ~say~, and the rest will just pick up in your state of flow basically.”




——————————–  Chris on his preparation for flow ————————————-


We would like to thank Douggs for his time and insight. We look forwards to following and helping Douggs in his future expeditions.

For more information on Chris Douggs McDougall see our Flow Pros.







Flow Interview – Nick Troutman – World Champion Kayaker

Flow Interview – Nick Troutman – World Champion Kayaker

Articles To Inspire Flow Performance Skills Quotes Sports Stories Tips and Training

Dropping down 70ft waterfalls whilst pinned into a kayak is not for the fainthearted. However, for Nick Troutman, this is what he lives for. Most people would hit the panic alarm, but Nick is so used to getting into flow, he even does emergency adjustments as he is dropping vertically.

Nick Troutman is a world champion and five-time national champion kayaker, filmmaker, and philanthropist. He is highly respected in the river-sport community, and in addition to his competitive achievements has established several first descents while on expeditions in Mexico, Newfoundland, Ottawa, Zambia, Quebec, and the Niagara Gorge.  His commitment to the river and exceptional kayaking skills are what drove us to track him down and ask him to join The Flow Centre.

To share some of his key insights we have created this blog so you can get to understand this unbelievable athlete.


We are driving around, checking out a whole bunch of different rivers and stuff.

Nice! How long are you there for?

We’re on the road probably for the next 8 to 10 months, I guess probably 8 months – until like October, November. So, driving around in different states and countries and stuff like that.

Yeah – tough life! (laughs)

Then back to Tennessee. Yeah, it’s not too bad. (chuckle)


——————————–  Cut to more juicy parts ————————————-


When asked about whether he has experienced flow Nick’s response was:
Nick Troutman Kayaker

Yeah, definitely – you’ve studied it a lot and are very knowledgeable on the whole thing, but what you’re describing… I definitely have experienced that, and it’s like “Oh yeah.”

Then there’s the times where…it seems like… like an out-of-body experience, or that like you’re no longer in control; where you’re like “Whoa, how did that happen?!”

I guess the cool part would be to figure out how to get into it more often, being that whenever I’m in the flow state I feel like I’m just way better.




——————————–  Nick explaining his top flow moments ————————————-

I guess one of them… It happened several times, but one of them that’s has been very memorable for me was… Actually, it’s in the video I think, the highlight reel, where I’m running a waterfall, I’m in the green kayak and I slow it down in the video. Running that waterfall, we were there with a photographer and we kind of had to wait at the ~lip~ for like a couple of hours for him to get set up. And so the whole time of trying to just sit there calmly and be like “Okay, I’m not even going to think about the waterfall. I scouted it, I know the line and I’m going to nail the line.” type of thing, but then I had to really focus on, like zoning out and thinking about something totally different for the next couple of hours… Because the longer I scout the waterfall and look at the waterfall, the more I… what I call getting demons in my head, but the more I think of different possible outcomes, and then maybe after thinking of all the different possible outcomes a bad outcome comes into my mind, and I’m like “Well, if I’m already imagining bad outcomes then I don’t want to run the waterfall anymore.” so I try to only think of the good outcomes.

But anyway, it was kind of this weird experience to zone out at the ~lip of this~ waterfall and just think of other stuff. And then when I did run the waterfall, it’s almost like… hard for me to recall, because it’s like I paddled in, and then I knew the line that I wanted to do – like, get close to the left – but then my boat spun a little bit and I had to do this correction stroke and pull it back while I was dropping down vertical – like, a lot of different boat control happening all at once. And I don’t necessarily remember doing any of it, I just did it. There was never like an “Oh, sh**! I’m not where I want to be, I need to correct this.” or “Oh, it would be better if I did this.“ It was just like… I wasn’t thinking, I just did it all and it was perfect.

Then afterwards I remember being like “Oh, what just happened? How did I do that?” Like, I did a lot of things in a very short period of time and I don’t remember trying to do any of them, I just did it all. It was just one of those experiences that I guess I felt like I wasn’t thinking, I was just reacting, but reacting so quickly.

That was one of the ones that was super memorable for me, but that happens quite often to a certain extent, where you just kind of react I guess and you’re not necessarily… not thinking necessarily like “Oh, I’m going to put here and pull myself that way, or I’m going to do this and that.” – you just kind of do it. I don’t know if that has to do with ~just several~ years of paddling, or if it’s some other thing in the brain, it’s kind of like just… I don’t know. There’s a lot of things that happen that always made me wonder, like “Oh, I wonder how you do that?” or “I wonder ~what’s actually happening?” Because sometimes it feels like my brain just shuts off and I’m better when it does.

It was a very unique experience where just everything felt all connected and I could do whatever I wanted, it was almost like if I imagined it would work. Everything was happening quicker and better and easier, and… I don’t know….a unique experience for sure. That’s probably the strongest time that I can really remember, but it happens quite often doing anything that’s—like, what I consider technical whitewater, where I’m nervous about a drop or a rapid or something like that, I frequently find that I kind of… I don’t know, I just… I guess you can call it like you’re in the zone, or you’re just more in-tuned maybe because of… Whether it’s fear or any of that that kicks in, or adrenaline, but sometimes the harder the whitewater the more I zone out and just react a little bit.

I keep saying reacting, and I don’t know if that’s the right term or not, but I guess it’s just the word that I use because I’m not necessarily thinking like “Oh, I want to drive my boat farther this way or that way, or boof the hole or whatever.” I kind of just do it all, almost as if I’m on autopilot and a much better paddler is paddling my boat.


So what about your freestyle experiences?

Yeah, I was going to say that in freestyle it’s a bit different… I don’t know if it’s a different experience or what, or maybe just a different level of the same kind of experience, but there’s definitely times where… a couple in particular that I can think of where I just had the best rides I could possibly have. I don’t know if it’s—like obviously I was training hard for those events and practicing a lot and was in good physical shape and all that stuff, but at the same time it’s a little different because you drop into the wave – and you’ve got 60 seconds or 45 seconds, depending on the competition – and it was just like bam-bam-bam, like I would just do one move right after another, right after another.

I wasn’t wasting time, I wasn’t doing anything, but I was very aware of where I was on the wave exactly, just super in-tune with my boat, my edge control, the current, the flows of the wave itself, and it just felt like I was almost invincible, the same kind of thing where whatever I wanted to do I could do and I did it. Being that you’re under a time limit for the competition, the more tricks you do and the harder the tricks the more points you get, so… Yeah, I was able to do essentially everything that I wanted to do.


So what routines or preparation did you have prior to the comp that helped you get into flow?

Going into the competition I had a set routine that I wanted to do, but I hadn’t necessarily ever completed it in the time frame before or even in practice. But it was just like I could just drop in and do whatever I wanted, and if I was in the wrong spot of the wave or something like that then I could just re-manoeuvre myself and I could get back into the right spot and continue going way quicker than normal. I guess a lot of it is just you’re not wasting time thinking, you’re just doing, which is pretty cool.

Both of them I was doing a lot of mental practice, just essentially doing the routine in my head. But a lot of it as well was just really trying to stay positive. In both situations there was a lot of pressure and a lot of people… You’re sitting in agony with all the rest of the people that are in finals, and there’s just this severe amount of stress in the air, you can just feel that everybody is stressed. For me, at the time it was like… I had this bubble around me, and I would just be so happy and try to calm everybody else down. I’d be like “Hey guys, no need to stress! This is so much fun!” and just really being super positive about the whole experience, and I think that same positivity then, when I would drop into the ~feature~, there was no stress about flushing or missing a trick or anything like that, and just… I don’t know, I just had this feeling like I know I’m going to do it (Win World Championships).

Maybe that’s why I was also so positive at the time, or maybe that feeling came because of the positive outlook beforehand. But yeah, that’s… It’s a very unique experience for sure. It’s a little bit like feeling invincible.



——————————–  Nick explaining the disparity between flow and winning ————————————-

The first World Championships I ever did, I had a lot of really good rounds where I was winning the whole time, and then in the finals the wave changed for the very last ride, and I had… At the time I was undefeated through the whole round, and I had this routine in my head that I was trying to do and I had never completed it, and then in my final ride of the event I completed it and I was just thinking like “Oh, I’m untouchable – nobody could touch that!” But, because the wave changed and it was a little foamier, some of the judges didn’t like some of the tricks, and so I ended up in third. I guess it’s a different thing (flow) to your results… Like, sometimes your results don’t show, but the flow state still is there, if that makes any sense. Like, I could still tap into that same mindset, even though the results weren’t the exact same.


——————————–  Nick explaining why he endures such high risks and continues to love the sport  ————————————-

It almost forces you to go into these fight, flight, freeze, or flow situations where… Like, I was explaining before, once you peel out of an eddy and you’re essentially approaching a rapid… There is no turning back, you’re in the lion den, you have to come out victorious, or something horrible is going to go wrong. I’ve always explained when people ask why I love kayaking, I would explain that it’s either the love of nature, which is definitely a part of it, but a big part of it is the forced decision-making. You’re forced into these situations to make extremely quick decisions. Like, river’s very different than a half-pipe, a half-pipe you’ve got something solid where you’re going to go down and you’re going to come back up.

You can run the same rapid 100 times, and because water, the way it flows through a river and stuff like that, it’s never constant – the only constant is that it’s constantly changing. So, even though you can pick a line and you’re like “Okay, this is the line I’m going to take.” the current might push you a different way, or something might just happen, and definitely… A huge part of why I love kayaking is because of that forced quick decision-making, and it’s almost like the way you were explaining just the four… What I’m going to call the four Fs, the fight, flight, freeze, or flow situations. It’s like you’re forcing yourself into these situations to be put into, to choose one of the four I guess.


——————————–  End of interview  ————————————-

We would like to thank Nick for his time and insight. We look forwards to following and helping Nick win Gold in the next championships.

For more information on Nick Troutman see our Flow Pros.




Flow Interview – Tom Carroll – Legend & World Champion Surfer

Flow Interview – Tom Carroll – Legend & World Champion Surfer

Articles To Inspire Flow Performance Skills Quotes Sports Stories Tips and Training Videos

This year’s World Surf League Margaret River Drug Aware Pro 2015 was a truly special event. Not only did I get to spend some time in the Competitors VIP Tent talking with the current best surfers in the world, but I also got to see some insane surfing in some of the best conditions this leg of the tour has seen in years. Some highlights of the event can be seen here.

I met up with Tom Carroll at the event to chat about flow and understand how it has been instrumental to his life and surfing. For those that don’t know Tom Carroll he has been voted as one of the top 10 greatest surfers of all time and been crowned World Champion twice. Even today, at the age of 53, he continues to push limits, searching the globe to ride the world’s biggest swells for his TV series ‘Storm Surfers’. In fact, when I met up with him, he had just taken a huge beating, injuring his hip, at the intimidating Boat Ramps surf break – a break not for the feint hearted, especially on a day like today with massive swell.

After speaking to Nat Young and Josh Kerr about flow, whose responses echoed the sentiment ‘flow – I’m always in flow, it’s what a I live for’, the legend himself talked about how he sees flow and how he plugs-in.


tom carroll surfing

Where’s the mic on this… down here. Maybe you hold it.

“Okay, yeah.”

How did you feel when you’re in it (Flow) and what was your top experiences like?

“Well, I had my first really clear flow movement experience when I was 13 years of age. Obviously I’ve done a lot of surfing, to that point, I’ve been already surfing since seven years of age. I was on a board that I absolutely loved, that really fitted into my body at that time. I was surfing a right-hand point-break which I hadn’t experienced before, but it was a very comfortable place to surf, or something that—I loved surfing a long wave where I got to do a lot of maneuvres on the wave. It was probably for the first time I’d actually ridden a wave where I could do that many maneuvres on, so I was pretty excited. You know, just excited to be out there, loved the board, so I was in a very nice environment. And then, towards the end of the session… I never forget, taking a wave a little bit longer and further down the beach and getting drifted down the beach to a whole new wave.”

“There was no one surfing on it, I was by myself so I got into the flow moment, which I recognised as a moment in time where nothing could go wrong. All my timing was absolutely perfectly in harmony with the wave, perfectly in harmony with my body movements and my timing and my understanding of what was happening at that time. I couldn’t get, I could not fall off the board even if I tried. That was a really clear moment, and I can feel it now, I can sense it in my body at this point – I’m 53 now so it’s a long time ago! So yeah, you’re looking at 40 years ago I can sort of get that real clear emotional response in my body to that.”

“It was a really lovely feeling, and I just wanted to stay out there and keep in that space, but obviously you’ve got to come in – you know, it’s getting dark.”

“It could’ve lasted—I can’t remember exactly the length of that time, but because of the nature of surfing… You know, I’m paddling out, looking for waves, feeling what’s the best wave to take, feeling the drop, feeling the move on the wave, and feeling totally in sync with how the wave was moving, and the board and how I was moving on the wave. It probably lasted up to… You know, I probably came in and out of the experience through that hour or two, but it was long, elongated, suspended… a suspended feeling of flow.”

Yeah. Describe when you were actually in it and on the wave, ~sort of~ the highest points.

“Yeah, yeah. The highest points was on the wave…

“I’d noticed clearly that I couldn’t fall off, that I was totally in sync. I could move wherever I wanted to, I knew with a sixth sense that I was able to push it, I was able to push my board to its limit and I could push myself to my limit at that time. There was no separation between me, the board and the wave, it was all connected and it was all kind of one thing, not separated at all; I was linked up

“The future, drawing way off into the future for my second really clear… and in competition feeling the flow moment was at the Pipe Masters in 1991, I had two day of getting into the flow moment during competition. I’d had a big year of competitive experience that year, I was ~fine-tuned~ emotionally, physically, and you’d have to say spiritually at the same time. My wife was having our first child and she was full of little Jenna. She’s 23 now by the way and also a ballerina, so she’s felt the flow.”


“In that time at the Pipe Masters I had several moments where I was just doing and not being, or I guess I was being and not doing; I don’t know how to separate that. I was in the flow in the moments where my body, the wave, the board… nothing was in the way. Everything was in sync, everything was in clear focus and I wasn’t thinking things through, I was just doing it and being it. There was a move that was recorded – you know, they call it the snap ~heard~ around the world, there was that move that was done in the preliminary round, in the first day of competition, and then I ended up going on to win that event the next day. In the final I scored a 10-point ride, I got a very, very late drop where I couldn’t think about it – I was just doing it – and I was able to sort myself, sort my body movement, sort everything out without having to think about it.”


tom carroll surfing

“It was all second nature, it was all sixth sense, and most definitely for me… That day I was probably at the top of my game. So, yeah.  That was two really clear examples of where I’ve been, but there’s probably been… hundreds of moments where I’ve been felt the flow, and even to the point where I felt it the other day [laughs] here at Margaret River just practicing surfing, just for fun. Yeah.”

Obviously the critical elements of surfing, the big wave and the consequences of it hurting when it goes wrong help us to kind of push into that pocket and out of our brain and into that moment where we find flow. Is there anything else that you feel is a big help to kind of plugging into that? Is there anything that you do, maybe not consciously, or maybe preparation that leads up to it the morning of, or just before you’re about to paddle, or when you’re looking at the waves before you head out?

“I think connecting with the breath is probably the biggest thing for me. Connecting with my breath at the deepest level, like right down into the hip, into the hips and push my breath. Being aware of my breath and doing a number of breaths very, very consciously brings me further into my body, and that’s where I need to be. Quite often my scattered and very short attention span takes me out of my body, so coming back into my body… One particular exercise I used to do whilst competing was a chant, that’s where I used to say the four Ps which was power, precision, performance, perfect. Power, precision, performance, perfect – it’s like a chant.”

A mantra.

“A mantra yeah – whilst I was paddling, so each paddle I’d say “power”—as I was paddling out “power, precision, performance, perfect” so my mind would remain focused on what was coming up next for me on the wave. On the wave everything sorted out because I’ve got to respond, I can’t think, the wave’s always sort of drawing me to the present, I can’t… I don’t have time because mother nature aint’ going to wait for me. [laughs] She’s not going to wait, so what I’ve got to do is respond to her so that everything’s sorted out for me once I’m stood up on the wave, as long as I’m out of the way. So, getting myself out of the way by creating—and I’d learnt that working with a mantra helped a lot in bringing myself to the moment and keeping myself focused and not attending—you know, drifting off on to what the other competitor’s doing, what the scores were… I mean, I need to know what the scores were, but that’s secondary to my performance really.”

“I’m the only one on the wave, I’m the only one on my board, and I need to be connected to that. I don’t sort of seek constantly and consciously to always be in the flow, I wouldn’t say that’s my main aim, I wouldn’t say that’s… I do look for it for competitive excellence, but not… it’s not something that I always, always go for. I do allow myself space to be… you know, just to be… allowing my brain to move and be elastic so to speak. Because I think that’s absolutely crucial for flow.”

How do you think flow can help other people?

“I think it helps anyone just to be present in what they’re doing, and this is what… this is pretty much another kind of meditative state that we get to where our body and mind and attention is really placed upon the most important thing, and that is right now. So, we get to attend to be a lot more present in our basic everyday task, whether it’d be doing the washing-up [laughs], whether it’d be opening the car door, whether it’d be… Yeah, just being more present in our relationships, being more present in our life in general. I think ~it’ll~ help us become more able to make clearer decisions and actually help ourselves and others at the same time. It has such a multiple sort of faceted kind of plus to our lives when we get more present. This has been my experience and it’s helped me a lot.


We would like to take this opportunity to thank Tom Carroll for his time and words on flow and look forward to hearing his experiences and wisdom on flow in the future.



Aucamthor: Cameron Norsworthy – Performance Director


Flow, happiness and the future of positive psychology

Flow, happiness and the future of positive psychology

Articles To Inspire Flow Performance Skills Quotes Videos

Martin Seligman, one of the founders of the positive psychology movement, recently gave an important TED talk (which can be viewed below). In his overview of what humans require in order to attain more life satisfaction, Seligman outlined how flow is a major part of the Holy Grail.

The talk starts by explaining the successes of traditional psychology. Psychology was originally born out of the disease-led model and existed to find solutions to mental illnesses that were rife in society. It has succeeded to date by successfully treating fourteen disorders and curing two. More importantly it has provided a scientific approach towards understanding mental illness.

We have been able to measure previously fuzzy concepts such as depression, alcoholism and schizophrenia, and learned about the various causalities. We have also been able to invent and test treatments, and have successfully been able to make ‘miserable people, less miserable‘, as Seligman put its.

However, and it’s a big one at that, one of the main failures has been the focus on making the average person happier or improving normal lives. This traditional approach to psychology has not found out how to nurture talent or which positive interventions are more successful than others.

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Positive psychology has taken giant strides in the last decade towards rectifying this issue. Interestingly it has found that the happiest people are not those that have more money, a religious affinity or a more comfortable life. But there is one significant correlational result; the happiest people are those that are social – “Each of them is in a romantic relationship and each has a rich repertoire of friends”, says Seligman.

Happiness is also a vague concept that has been used and abused over the years, and is often very misleading. As a result, happiness has been defined into three types of lives.

Firstly is the pleasurable life, which is attained by creating pleasure and as many positive emotions as possible. This is the type of life Hollywood sells, as do the many marketing campaigns that so readily litter our environments. Although these positive emotions are pleasurable they are very habitual; meaning that “it’s all like French vanilla ice cream, the first taste is a 100%; by the time you’re down to the sixth taste, it’s gone” as Seligman puts it. He goes on to say that the pleasurable life is not very malleable and heritable.

The second life is a good life. Now listen up, because this is where flow comes in. This life is about engagement, total absorption in what we are doing. It is void of positive emotion, as time stops and we become connected with the task at hand. To attain this lifestyle we must identify our signature strengths and re-craft our life to use these strengths in our work, love and play. Interestingly, people who experience these flow moments that make up the ‘good life’ are not consumed by positive emotion that the many marketing campaigns will desire us to search for.

Lastly is the meaningful life – where we use our strengths for something bigger than ourselves. These altruistic actions leave a lasting level of happiness way past the actual event.

Seligman goes on to say that to understand life satisfaction we have studied these three types of lives: “And we’ve done this in fifteen replications involving thousands of people – to what extent does the pursuit of pleasure, the pursuit of positive emotion, the pleasant life, the pursuit of engagement, time stopping for you, and the pursuit of meaning contribute to life satisfaction?…. Our results surprised us, but they were backward of what we thought. It turns out the pursuit of pleasure has almost no contribution to life satisfaction. The pursuit of meaning is the strongest. The pursuit of engagement is also very strong. Where pleasure matters is if you have both engagement and you have meaning, then pleasure’s the whipped cream and the cherry. Which is to say, the full life — the sum is greater than the parts, if you’ve got all three. Conversely, if you have none of the three, the empty life, the sum is less than the parts.” He goes on to say that life satisfaction is more significantly found through finding flow and meaning in what we are doing.

So to attempt to summarise a 20-minute talk into a sentence and relate it to us flow seekers out there: Keep going. Keep searching for flow in everything we do and along the way find our own meaning to what we are doing. If we can experience flow for a meaningful purpose, then we are on the road to the Holy Grail of happiness.