Flow Interview – Chris ‘Douggs’ McDougall – World Record Holder – Base Jumper – Skydiver

Flow Interview – Chris ‘Douggs’ McDougall – World Record Holder – Base Jumper – Skydiver

Articles To Inspire Flow Performance Skills Quotes Sports Stories Tips and Training

When we went in search of the ultimate base jumper and skydiver, we expected to find someone extraordinary – someone who was used to pushing the limits and had the ability to freeze time. When we finally hooked up with Douggs he was everything we had been looking for and more. Douggs’ wealth of experience is nothing short of outstanding.

Douggs has felt flow frequently, in multiple arenas, and when he is not pretending to be Superman he is a motivational speaker, TV presenter, commentator, author, film maker, and stunt man. Douggs is one of the world most experienced BASE jumpers, respected both inside and outside the sport. He is a World Champion, World Record holder, and completed well over 3200 BASE jumps and 7000 skydives across more than 42 countries.

His list of achievements and highlights include: 2014 World Wingsuit League, China – 2013 World Record for most base jumpers jumping indoors – 2013 First ever BASE jumps in Kuwait from Al Hamra Tower – 2013 1st place in World Extreme Base Championships, Spain – 2013 1st place in Accuracy Competitions in both Turkey & China -2012 World first night human slingshot, Dubai – 2011 World BASE Championships, 2nd place -2008 UK ProBase British Open : Overall Champion – 2003/04 BASE jumping World Champion: 1st place Aerobatics, 1st place Team, 1st place overall – Many expeditions throughout remote parts of the world including, Baffin Island, China, Norway, New Zealand & 37 other countries -1998 2003, 6 time Australian National Skydiving Champion in 4 way and 8 way RW – 2001 2003 Australian team member for World Championships – 2002 World Record: 300 way skydive – 12 Gold medals in various state events – and much more.

As you can imagine, our interview with Douggs was very insightful.


In skydiving and base jumping it (flow) called the zone, but I ve never heard the actual technical term for it before.

Yeah, yeah. It called different things. Jazz musicians call it ‘being in the pocket’. Different people have different names for it, but everyone knows it when you talk about it. You know, it that moment where we re completely engulfed and everything just at one, we re highly connected and time seems to pause, but then you come out of it and then time forwards winds, and you re like ÔÇ£Oh my God, what just happened?ÔÇØ

I ve written a number of articles it. There no past, no future, there just this present. I call it the now.

It an incredible feeling. And once you submit to it, that Like, when you re shaking on the edge or whatever, and then you commit and submit and take those three deep breaths then everything goes still and quiet, and then that beautiful silence that first second is just incredible…and then off we go, and then that when you hit it.


ÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇö Chris on starting out ÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇö-


Base jumping has been the best thing ever for me because it allowed me to take everything I ve learnt in jumping and take it to ordinary life, which has just given me endless possibilities; there no negatives, only positives. There only You know, the cup always half full now. I think that the right one. [laughs] Do you know what I mean? Like, I was lucky I got into base jumping super early and found it, and it just blew me away. I mean, on my first skydive I still blacked out for over five seconds, you know, so my brain wasn t able to process that information at all.

But then I was intrigued by that, went straight back up and did another one. I ve never been able to get that sensation again, except forÔÇöthe closest I ever got was when we did a human slingshot a couple of years ago in Dubai, and long storyÔÇöthere a video online about it, but we were shooting out so fast that I think we were doing zero to 200 in about a second, about 6-7 Gs, I was able to process the information, but I was almost on my limit of processing it, it was interesting. It the only time I got that sensation (complete shut off) back since my first skydive.

I think it called sensory overload. It where your brain is just receiving too much information and it shuts down. But yeah, you never get it back really, so it interesting. I ve always been intrigued from day one about it all.


ÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇö Chris on his flow experiences ÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇö-


Just when you see I m in a really good state of flow I generally smile [laughs] because it just…I m actually really relaxed. So, that jump (where I was smiling) It took us five jumps that day to get to that point.

(When in flow) You can just see more, so I see things off in the distance, the cameraman sitting there, and I saw 15 seconds flying past at about 200 Ks/hour, and I smiled at him as I went past super casually. So, that everything sort of Almost happy. [laughs] Like, in this calm trance-like state, but like The Matrix, you know, like ÔÇ£Sh**, it actually moving fastÔÇØ but you ve just made it all stand still. That when I really enjoy it, because everyone like ÔÇ£Oh wow, you must get this big adrenaline rush when you do this!ÔÇØ and I m like ÔÇ£I don t actually.ÔÇØ [laughs] I get really, really calm and really tranquil.

I was just doing some stuff out of my comfort zone this last week, and sh** moving fast still, but when we get comfortable then everything just slows down and it just poetic almost; it beautiful.

You almost ~not~ feel invincible, that a good word for it. You re just you re on another level to everyone and everything around you. I mean, that animal instinct, that what animals get. They re always in flow [laughs].

Another way to explain it is, when we jump off a waterfall ~and~ jump in snow, you ~hit~ that microsecond of a point where everything stops, and if you re in flow, which I generally am, you d stop for a lot longer than a microsecond. You re falling at the same speed as the water droplets, or the same speed as the snow, and whilst it only a microsecond you can make it last for seconds, and then it speeds up really quick! It exactly like the movies basically.

I mean, that what The Matrix did, The Matrix put flow into cinema, in my opinion. I always use The Matrix as my way to try and explain it best to the layman, because it shows it clearly on cinema how it all works.


ÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇö Chris on his flow limits ÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇö-

In traffic (driving)…I can ~miss~, I can can ~swirve~ and miss and do whatever, I just process that information really, really f**king quickly. And then ÔÇö one that really stands out, my cousin a very good motorbike rider, and we did this trail riding super fast, super thin and I couldn t (find flow) ÔÇöit was the first time when I was like ÔÇ£Mother f**ker! I can t keep up with my cousin!ÔÇØ

When he riding a bike he in flow for sure, but I couldn t get there I m not good enough on a bike. That was the first time I really understood that I wasn t not invincible, and I can’t always find flow. Do you know what I mean? Because you walk around just feeling not better than everyone else, just like, you f**king own it all the time, you know, and that what makes a champion as well; you ve got to be able to own it. Confidence and arrogance is a fine line, but you ve got to walk that line all the time, you know.

More arrogant when you re younger, more confident when you re older. [laughs]


ÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇö Chris on his preparation for flow ÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇö-

What prep helps you get into flow?

For me, training and visualisation for sure.

I mean, I jump all the time, and I m doing extreme sports all the time. When I m speed flying, I m absolutely in flow when I m speed flying as well, but not while I m on skis, because I m a sh** skier; as soon as I take off I can do anything. But training for sure. And I think over time being in mountainous environment and an ocean environment so much you adapt. Do you know a guy called Dean Potter?


Very ~advanced~ climber. He a good friend of mine now, and watching him in the mountains is just He is a mountain man, you know, because he can adapt, he done so much time in the mountains that it second nature for him. He doesn t use ropes pretty much ever. He can just climb mountains because he put himself in that situation. Same as the watermen, your Laird Hamiltons and stuff like that. If I put myself in a situation long enough then the more And also, I do seminars on aerobatics in base, and what I learnt from doing hardcore aerobatics You know, like from 450 feet doing four or five flips or whatever Starting from single flips, learning and then pushing, pushing, pushing, pushing, getting to a point where Like, for us it that we have to, I have to accept my own limitations way earlier than I would like because I don t want to die, you know so I don t run at 100% ever really.

But, what I ve learnt was that coming back from say doing four-five flips on a jump to doing one flip on a jump opens the world up way more. So, you sort of need to push yourself that harder and see with blinkers on, to then pull back and be able to see the world with open eyes. That really interesting, and it very hard to tell a 20-year old kid to do that because they just want to go crazy. But after coming full circle I don t generally do all the big flips anymore, I just do the slow rotating ones. I d be upside down, waving at people in a restaurant off a building or something, because I m in the flow. But being able to do heaps of flips first has helped me reach that perspective. So, now my brain expects me to do all that stuff, and then when I ~lay it back~ a bit then the brain like ÔÇ£Oh yeah, this is much cooler!ÔÇØ [laughs] So, I teach people to not fly with blinkers on with everything they doing, to work themselves up to it and not rush into it. Work themselves up to it, and then when you pull back you re good. But on the other spectrum of that, the guysÔÇöI mean, we ve just lost a friend last year. They were pushing, pushing, pushing; their 100% performance became a normal percent. My normal performance is 30-50 percent now, just because I ve lost so many friends and I m having such a great life. But these guys are pushing so hard, their normal becomes 100%. And you almost need 100% sometimes, because we re not perfect humans, so when these guys need an extra spike they didn t have it and died from it.

So, I try and teach that a lot as well, because Yeah, running at 100% all the time that not good for our sport. It not surfing where you can sort of get away with it, or skating where you ll break your ankle or something we generally die. So, our sport Whilst our sport is actually one of the safest extreme sports out there, when it goes wrong we die it very simple. It not a broken ankle or things like that, so it a real tricky one for helping others with that.


Yeah, yeah. I mean, it ~powerful~ what makes the skydiving such an amazing sport for flow, in terms of flow, when you think about it. You know, the consequences are so high when you re pushing it that you re almost forced into a state of flow. Your senses engage, the mind has to shut off because it just it can t compute everything that going on and make those decisions that you need to make, and you re forced into it. What do you do just before you jump off? You mentioned earlier, you said you take a couple of deep breaths and you kind of sit there.


Yeah. Like, off a cliffÔÇöplanes are different because it so noisy and you ve got to go at the same time, but from a cliff I ll gear up. These days I ll justÔÇöwell, obviously I ve got a lot of jumps, so it definitely has evolved, but I m always scared, that one key; I m always making sure I stay scared. That one of the key aspects to getting into flow I reckon as well, don t be overconfident with everything. And then Yeah, so I ll gear up and I ll prep myself on everything. So, the weather, my skill level, my gut feeling that day, the object that I m jumping off. You know, because sometimes I ll walk away as well, and sometimes I won t jump stuff that my students jump. You know, I have my own little my own path.

But then once I m geared up I ll double-check, triple-check everything, make sure I m cool, and then that way when I go to the edge the only thing I m scared of is being scared. That a key for me as well, because then your mind doesn t have to think about anything else, it can channel in and focus. And then when it time to go Yeah, generally I ll be freaking out, but that You ve got to turn that negative fear into a positive fear. That when I ll take three (deep breaths)ÔÇöbecause you re going to do it anyway [laughs], so you might as well do it correctly. You know, if it gets too much I d walk away and stuff, but I understand my body and my consciousness.

So yeah, when it is time to go I ll take basically calm down, take three deep breaths, and on the third breath or fourth breath or whatever I ll generally just head off. And that way just before you go you re completely calm, very tranquil, and about to throw yourself into the unknown. But, I mean, if it the unknown unknown then that another ball game Like, I do know the outcome could be bad, but it a calculated risk, so it a very small chance as such, but it could definitely still happen any jump I m no more special than anyone else. But once you put yourself in that position and you go then it on, and then you re just hyperaware of everything.

I ll always put myself in uncomfortable positions. Like, just recently I was doing this seminar in front of 120 legends of the sport, and then putting myself up to do a song actually at the ~talent night~ in front of the same people.


And I wasÔÇöthey saw me physically shaking with the lyrics, you know, and I still put myself there even though it was f**king terrifying.

But, you know, I like doing that. The song was a good one because I was so nervous and my voice was so sh**ful, and then by the end I ve got the whole crowd clapping and singing with me because I d entered flow basically in a different environment and just went into rockstar mode sort of thing, without the talent by the way.

And by the end I was good, and then afterwards I m like f**king ~freaking~ out again, but I d hit that for about a minute of that song, I hit the flow basically. And same with the talks as well, you start out nervous. Dean Potter actually helped me, trying toÔÇöI try to do as much motivational speaking as I can now to overcome one of my biggest fears, and he said ÔÇ£Just learn the first two sentences.ÔÇØ [laughs] ÔÇ£Just memorise the first two sentences. You ve got to start ~say~, and the rest will just pick up in your state of flow basically.ÔÇØ




ÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇö Chris on his preparation for flow ÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇöÔÇö-


We would like to thank Douggs for his time and insight. We look forwards to following and helping Douggs in his future expeditions.

For more information on Chris Douggs McDougall see our Flow Pros.







Flow Interview – Nick Troutman – World Champion Kayaker

Flow Interview – Nick Troutman – World Champion Kayaker

Articles To Inspire Flow Performance Skills Quotes Sports Stories Tips and Training

Dropping down 70ft waterfalls whilst pinned into a kayak is not for the fainthearted. However, for Nick Troutman, this is what he lives for. Most people would hit the panic alarm, but Nick is so used to getting into flow, he even does emergency adjustments as he is dropping vertically.

Nick Troutman is a world champion and five-time national champion kayaker, filmmaker, and philanthropist. He is highly respected in the river-sport community, and in addition to his competitive achievements has established several first descents while on expeditions in Mexico, Newfoundland, Ottawa, Zambia, Quebec, and the Niagara Gorge. His commitment to the river and exceptional kayaking skills are what drove us to track him down and ask him to join The Flow Centre.

To share some of his key insights we have created this blog so you can get to understand this unbelievable athlete.


We are driving around, checking out a whole bunch of different rivers and stuff.

Nice! How long are you there for?

We re on the road probably for the next 8 to 10 months, I guess probably 8 months until like October, November. So, driving around in different states and countries and stuff like that.

Yeah tough life! (laughs)

Then back to Tennessee. Yeah, it not too bad. (chuckle)


——————————– Cut to more juicy parts ————————————-


When asked about whether he has experienced flow Nick’s response was:
Nick Troutman Kayaker

Yeah, definitely – you ve studied it a lot and are very knowledgeable on the whole thing, but what you re describing I definitely have experienced that, and it like ÔÇ£Oh yeah.ÔÇØ

Then there the times where…it seems like like an out-of-body experience, or that like you re no longer in control; where you re like ÔÇ£Whoa, how did that happen?!ÔÇØ

I guess the cool part would be to figure out how to get into it more often, being that whenever I m in the flow state I feel like I m just way better.




——————————– Nick explaining his top flow moments ————————————-

I guess one of them It happened several times, but one of them that has been very memorable for me was Actually, it in the video I think, the highlight reel, where I m running a waterfall, I m in the green kayak and I slow it down in the video. Running that waterfall, we were there with a photographer and we kind of had to wait at the ~lip~ for like a couple of hours for him to get set up. And so the whole time of trying to just sit there calmly and be like ÔÇ£Okay, I m not even going to think about the waterfall. I scouted it, I know the line and I m going to nail the line.ÔÇØ type of thing, but then I had to really focus on, like zoning out and thinking about something totally different for the next couple of hours Because the longer I scout the waterfall and look at the waterfall, the more I what I call getting demons in my head, but the more I think of different possible outcomes, and then maybe after thinking of all the different possible outcomes a bad outcome comes into my mind, and I m like ÔÇ£Well, if I m already imagining bad outcomes then I don t want to run the waterfall anymore.ÔÇØ so I try to only think of the good outcomes.

But anyway, it was kind of this weird experience to zone out at the ~lip of this~ waterfall and just think of other stuff. And then when I did run the waterfall, it almost like hard for me to recall, because it like I paddled in, and then I knew the line that I wanted to do like, get close to the left but then my boat spun a little bit and I had to do this correction stroke and pull it back while I was dropping down vertical like, a lot of different boat control happening all at once. And I don t necessarily remember doing any of it, I just did it. There was never like an ÔÇ£Oh, sh**! I m not where I want to be, I need to correct this.ÔÇØ or ÔÇ£Oh, it would be better if I did this.ÔÇ£ It was just like I wasn t thinking, I just did it all and it was perfect.

Then afterwards I remember being like ÔÇ£Oh, what just happened? How did I do that?ÔÇØ Like, I did a lot of things in a very short period of time and I don t remember trying to do any of them, I just did it all. It was just one of those experiences that I guess I felt like I wasn t thinking, I was just reacting, but reacting so quickly.

That was one of the ones that was super memorable for me, but that happens quite often to a certain extent, where you just kind of react I guess and you re not necessarily not thinking necessarily like ÔÇ£Oh, I m going to put here and pull myself that way, or I m going to do this and that.ÔÇØ you just kind of do it. I don t know if that has to do with ~just several~ years of paddling, or if it some other thing in the brain, it kind of like just I don t know. There a lot of things that happen that always made me wonder, like ÔÇ£Oh, I wonder how you do that?ÔÇØ or ÔÇ£I wonder ~what actually happening?ÔÇØ Because sometimes it feels like my brain just shuts off and I’m better when it does.

It was a very unique experience where just everything felt all connected and I could do whatever I wanted, it was almost like if I imagined it would work. Everything was happening quicker and better and easier, and I don t know….a unique experience for sure. That probably the strongest time that I can really remember, but it happens quite often doing anything that ÔÇölike, what I consider technical whitewater, where I m nervous about a drop or a rapid or something like that, I frequently find that I kind of I don t know, I just I guess you can call it like you re in the zone, or you re just more in-tuned maybe because of Whether it fear or any of that that kicks in, or adrenaline, but sometimes the harder the whitewater the more I zone out and just react a little bit.

I keep saying reacting, and I don t know if that the right term or not, but I guess it just the word that I use because I m not necessarily thinking like ÔÇ£Oh, I want to drive my boat farther this way or that way, or boof the hole or whatever.ÔÇØ I kind of just do it all, almost as if I m on autopilot and a much better paddler is paddling my boat.


So what about your freestyle experiences?

Yeah, I was going to say that in freestyle it a bit different I don t know if it a different experience or what, or maybe just a different level of the same kind of experience, but there definitely times where a couple in particular that I can think of where I just had the best rides I could possibly have. I don t know if it ÔÇölike obviously I was training hard for those events and practicing a lot and was in good physical shape and all that stuff, but at the same time it a little different because you drop into the wave and you ve got 60 seconds or 45 seconds, depending on the competition and it was just like bam-bam-bam, like I would just do one move right after another, right after another.

I wasn t wasting time, I wasn t doing anything, but I was very aware of where I was on the wave exactly, just super in-tune with my boat, my edge control, the current, the flows of the wave itself, and it just felt like I was almost invincible, the same kind of thing where whatever I wanted to do I could do and I did it. Being that you re under a time limit for the competition, the more tricks you do and the harder the tricks the more points you get, so Yeah, I was able to do essentially everything that I wanted to do.


So what routines or preparation did you have prior to the comp that helped you get into flow?

Going into the competition I had a set routine that I wanted to do, but I hadn t necessarily ever completed it in the time frame before or even in practice. But it was just like I could just drop in and do whatever I wanted, and if I was in the wrong spot of the wave or something like that then I could just re-manoeuvre myself and I could get back into the right spot and continue going way quicker than normal. I guess a lot of it is just you re not wasting time thinking, you re just doing, which is pretty cool.

Both of them I was doing a lot of mental practice, just essentially doing the routine in my head. But a lot of it as well was just really trying to stay positive. In both situations there was a lot of pressure and a lot of people You re sitting in agony with all the rest of the people that are in finals, and there just this severe amount of stress in the air, you can just feel that everybody is stressed. For me, at the time it was like I had this bubble around me, and I would just be so happy and try to calm everybody else down. I d be like ÔÇ£Hey guys, no need to stress! This is so much fun!ÔÇØ and just really being super positive about the whole experience, and I think that same positivity then, when I would drop into the ~feature~, there was no stress about flushing or missing a trick or anything like that, and just I don t know, I just had this feeling like I know I m going to do it (Win World Championships).

Maybe that why I was also so positive at the time, or maybe that feeling came because of the positive outlook beforehand. But yeah, that It a very unique experience for sure. It a little bit like feeling invincible.



——————————– Nick explaining the disparity between flow and winning ————————————-

The first World Championships I ever did, I had a lot of really good rounds where I was winning the whole time, and then in the finals the wave changed for the very last ride, and I had At the time I was undefeated through the whole round, and I had this routine in my head that I was trying to do and I had never completed it, and then in my final ride of the event I completed it and I was just thinking like ÔÇ£Oh, I m untouchable nobody could touch that!ÔÇØ But, because the wave changed and it was a little foamier, some of the judges didn t like some of the tricks, and so I ended up in third. I guess it a different thing (flow) to your results Like, sometimes your results don t show, but the flow state still is there, if that makes any sense. Like, I could still tap into that same mindset, even though the results weren t the exact same.


——————————– Nick explaining why he endures such high risks and continues to love the sport ————————————-

It almost forces you to go into these fight, flight, freeze, or flow situations where Like, I was explaining before, once you peel out of an eddy and you re essentially approaching a rapid There is no turning back, you re in the lion den, you have to come out victorious, or something horrible is going to go wrong. I ve always explained when people ask why I love kayaking, I would explain that it either the love of nature, which is definitely a part of it, but a big part of it is the forced decision-making. You re forced into these situations to make extremely quick decisions. Like, river very different than a half-pipe, a half-pipe you ve got something solid where you re going to go down and you re going to come back up.

You can run the same rapid 100 times, and because water, the way it flows through a river and stuff like that, it never constant the only constant is that it constantly changing. So, even though you can pick a line and you re like ÔÇ£Okay, this is the line I m going to take.ÔÇØ the current might push you a different way, or something might just happen, and definitely A huge part of why I love kayaking is because of that forced quick decision-making, and it almost like the way you were explaining just the four What I m going to call the four Fs, the fight, flight, freeze, or flow situations. It like you re forcing yourself into these situations to be put into, to choose one of the four I guess.


——————————– End of interview ————————————-

We would like to thank Nick for his time and insight. We look forwards to following and helping Nick win Gold in the next championships.

For more information on Nick Troutman see our Flow Pros.